"What's wrong with college basketball?"


#1

PSU grad Dana O’Neil files this report, which is a survey of 20 top coaches, for ESPN.

What’s wrong with college basketball?

[i]Which league is the cleanest?

Congratulations, Jim Delany. Your league wins in a landslide. Of the 20 coaches surveyed, 11 said the Big Ten was the cleanest in the country[/i]


#2

Depressing article. Sounds like none of the coaches has much faith in where the game is going, which isn’t surprising but ultimately disappointing to hear directly from the guys in the thick of it.

I’m not sure there are any good answers out there to clean the game up. But i do believe the 1 year rule is doing far more harm than good. You either need to keep those guys out of the game altogether or make everyone stay for a few years like football.


#3

I liked one of the last lines, “the bad guys keep winning.” I also liked, “It’s not coaching anymore, it’s acquiring talent.” Until Calipari is thrown out, I don’t see how the NCAA can be considered serious.


#4

I often wonder whether Penn State’s alleged acceptance of mediocrity in MBB is due to a conviction of Curley and crew that it’s impossible to win big in college basketball without indulging in the shenanigans mentioned in O’Neil’s article, and Penn State simply refuses to pay that price.


#5

Yes, very interesting read. BUT, nothing really new.
A couple of semi “wise-guy” thoughts:

  1. I bet the coaches interviewed all make between 1/2 Million and 4 million a year. (heck even asst.coaches make great money.) My point is that this NCAA basketball gig is a “golden goose” for coaches!! Like to try to see these guys make 1/10 of the money in a “real job.”
  2. EVERYBODY knows but NOBODY says it! That’s is… the problem is the entire concept. Universities of higher learning are recruiting/paying/giving scholorships to many kids who should NOT really graduate High School. The USA needs minor league pro basketball starting at the age of 18 like the rest of world has for basketball and soccer. OR…like the USA has for baseball.
    . #2 will never happen because, oh yeah, the TV (ESPN) money is too good!
  3. I think Evan (above post) has a point!!

5… Kudos to Hilliary Scott, who after approx 10 years at D1 left to coach D3 Lynchburg


#6

Now that I am thinking in a “semi wise-guy” mode…Let me take this one step further.
This article was about a bunch of very rich guys (D-1 head coaches) complaining about a bunch of mostly very poor guys (parents and AAU coaches) trying to make a buck or get a job FROM the SAME very rich guys (coaches mentioned above.) Is it against rules?? Well, YES, but only when there is a transaction between party A (very rich guys) and party B (mostly poor guys.) Thus BOTH parties would have to be culpable before there was any violation/crime. Strike anybody as funny??

What about University administrators/presidents who run these ELITE learning institutions?? Are they required by their job description to maintain admission standards?? Or is the ESPN money more important??

You know maybe I have been a PSU fan for 40 years for a reason. I would STILL be a PSU fan if we played at the D3 level instead of the BigTen12.


#7
The USA needs minor league pro basketball starting at the age of 18 like the rest of world has for basketball and soccer.

I agree, and I still can’t believe this doesn’t exist. I mentioned a few years ago how I didn’t think it would be too much longer before we saw one pop up, and I think it would solve a lot of problems including purifying the college game again. I don’t think football would suffer doing the same thing either, although they might have a tougher time organizing it given the size of a football roster vs basketball.


#8

The Brandon Jennings experiment should prove to a lot of young guys that college doesn’t have to be their only answer after high school and before the NBA. And that should inspire somebody to get off their butts and have a pro system for guys 18-21… or even 18-24…


#9

The problem isn’t lack of minor leagues in basketball, it’s the way they are organized, or dis-organized. The reason minor league baseball & hockey works well is that even though each league and team is a separate corporate entity, they are part of an organized and affiliated hierarchy. Right now, there are probably 10 minor league basketball leagues in teh US. However, other than the NBADL, they are all independent, and like the indy baseball leagues, they are very volatile, and considered to be last resorts. if you are a high school kid, you’re better off trying to use college and it’s stable structure & consistent levels of competition as a means of advancing your basketball career.

I never quite understood why if the NBA considers the WNBA a worthwhile investment, they wouldn’t direct similar attention and resources in transforming the NBADL into a legit minor league. The NBADL has a draft, but does anyone know what the eligibility requirements are for their draft?

The reason baseball works fairly well is not just that high schoolers are eligible for the main draft, it’s that if you enter a 4 year college, you are not elligible to be drafted again until after your Jr year or you turn 21.

This means that high schoolers have three choices.

  1. Get drafted and go to the minor leagues
  2. Go to a JuCo and be eligible for the draft next year
  3. Go to a 4 year college and commit yourself to remaining in school for three years

#10

when Kurt Kanaskie spoke at the Allenbury, one of the very first things to come out of his mouth was “Penn State has NEVER had a major violation. Curley states to each coach that is hired, that if they commit a violation, they are out the door.”


#11

[quote=“manatree, post:9, topic:1264”]The problem isn’t lack of minor leagues in basketball, it’s the way they are organized, or dis-organized. The reason minor league baseball & hockey works well is that even though each league and team is a separate corporate entity, they are part of an organized and affiliated hierarchy. Right now, there are probably 10 minor league basketball leagues in teh US. However, other than the NBADL, they are all independent, and like the indy baseball leagues, they are very volatile, and considered to be last resorts. if you are a high school kid, you’re better off trying to use college and it’s stable structure & consistent levels of competition as a means of advancing your basketball career.

I never quite understood why if the NBA considers the WNBA a worthwhile investment, they wouldn’t direct similar attention and resources in transforming the NBADL into a legit minor league. The NBADL has a draft, but does anyone know what the eligibility requirements are for their draft?

The reason baseball works fairly well is not just that high schoolers are eligible for the main draft, it’s that if you enter a 4 year college, you are not elligible to be drafted again until after your Jr year or you turn 21.

This means that high schoolers have three choices.

  1. Get drafted and go to the minor leagues
  2. Go to a JuCo and be eligible for the draft next year
  3. Go to a 4 year college and commit yourself to remaining in school for three years[/quote]

Some very good points. I think the reason the NBA does not built up NBADL is because they do not want it challenge/compete in any way with the NCAA. The NCAA has been the PERFECT minor league for them. It not only gives kids a year or 3 of good basketball but MORE IMPORTANTLY it turns these kids into MEGA stars for the NBA. This HYPE is PRICELESS. Could the NBADL ever reach the status and hype power of the NCAA?? Maybe but I don’t think so.
Bottom line is that the NCAA is a MUCH BETTER minor league for the NBA than the NBADL could ever be.


#12

[quote=“manatree, post:9, topic:1264”]The problem isn’t lack of minor leagues in basketball, it’s the way they are organized, or dis-organized. The reason minor league baseball & hockey works well is that even though each league and team is a separate corporate entity, they are part of an organized and affiliated hierarchy. Right now, there are probably 10 minor league basketball leagues in teh US. However, other than the NBADL, they are all independent, and like the indy baseball leagues, they are very volatile, and considered to be last resorts. if you are a high school kid, you’re better off trying to use college and it’s stable structure & consistent levels of competition as a means of advancing your basketball career.

I never quite understood why if the NBA considers the WNBA a worthwhile investment, they wouldn’t direct similar attention and resources in transforming the NBADL into a legit minor league. The NBADL has a draft, but does anyone know what the eligibility requirements are for their draft?

The reason baseball works fairly well is not just that high schoolers are eligible for the main draft, it’s that if you enter a 4 year college, you are not elligible to be drafted again until after your Jr year or you turn 21.

This means that high schoolers have three choices.

  1. Get drafted and go to the minor leagues
  2. Go to a JuCo and be eligible for the draft next year
  3. Go to a 4 year college and commit yourself to remaining in school for three years[/quote]

I agree 100%. The reason I follow the AHL (Wilkes Barre / Scranton Penguins) is because I want to see how potential future Pittsburgh Penguins are doing. I also follow the Pirates minor league teams (although mostly Altoona since they are in the same league as Harrisburg’s team) for the same reason – want to see how the Bucco prospects are doing.

I thought that when Isaiah Thomas bought the CBA, he’d turn it into a farm system for the NBA. Unfortunately, he just bankrupted the league. I could never follow a team in the CBA, because the players were always different from year to year. And the roster wasn’t feeding anything I cared about. I’d go see the Lancaster Lightning play if they were the Sixers farm team.


#13

tundra and mjg are dead on.

If we were to rank the ‘major’ pro sports according to, let’s say, fan interest, it could debateable look this

1.) NFL - no minor leagues
2.) NBA - no minor leagues

3.) MLB - minors
4.) NHL - minors

…so you can see that the terms “need a minor league system” or “MLB and NHL have ‘successful’ minor league systems” is misleading.

Here’s the reality, (much like tundra stated, but worded differently)…

The NFL and NBA stars of tomorrow just got done playing in front of television crowds numbering in the tens of millions, while never earning one cent in salary from their future pro teams. They are already household names amongst sports fans.

The MLB and NHL stars of tomorrow are playing in front of maybe a few thousand people in place like Altoona, with no TV coverage, while earning millions.


#14

I agree with you, it would be great if the US had a league for these players. Jeremy Tyler followed Jennings footsteps, only he left high school after his junior year to go play in Europe (I want to say Israel). He got slammed by a lot of people. It has also proven very difficult for Tyler, at such a young age and pretty immature, to adapt to the culture. Thank goodness Jennings worked out in the NBA, because his experience over seas wasn’t great either.

Can somebody list all the college basketball teams that have had major violations? I know there are a lot of dirty programs out there, but I don’t think that many have had major violations, have they?


#15
[quote="Craftsy21, post:8, topic:1264"]The Brandon Jennings experiment should prove to a lot of young guys that college doesn't have to be their only answer after high school and before the NBA. And that should inspire somebody to get off their butts and have a pro system for guys 18-21.. or even 18-24..[/quote]

I agree with you, it would be great if the US had a league for these players. Jeremy Tyler followed Jennings footsteps, only he left high school after his junior year to go play in Europe (I want to say Israel). He got slammed by a lot of people. It has also proven very difficult for Tyler, at such a young age and pretty immature, to adapt to the culture. Thank goodness Jennings worked out in the NBA, because his experience over seas wasn’t great either.

Can somebody list all the college basketball teams that have had major violations? I know there are a lot of dirty programs out there, but I don’t think that many have had major violations, have they?

Don’t know how many have been CAUGHT in major violations BUT I would guess many have committed major violations.


#16
[quote="Craftsy21, post:8, topic:1264"]The Brandon Jennings experiment should prove to a lot of young guys that college doesn't have to be their only answer after high school and before the NBA. And that should inspire somebody to get off their butts and have a pro system for guys 18-21.. or even 18-24..[/quote]

I agree with you, it would be great if the US had a league for these players. Jeremy Tyler followed Jennings footsteps, only he left high school after his junior year to go play in Europe (I want to say Israel). He got slammed by a lot of people. It has also proven very difficult for Tyler, at such a young age and pretty immature, to adapt to the culture. Thank goodness Jennings worked out in the NBA, because his experience over seas wasn’t great either.

Can somebody list all the college basketball teams that have had major violations? I know there are a lot of dirty programs out there, but I don’t think that many have had major violations, have they?

There’s almost 350 Div-I hoops programs. To list all of them would be a huge task.

Off the top of my head, here are the ones that immediately come to mind for the BIG TEN: Michigan had to forfeit a few seasons because of the Fab Five, Indiana went through the Sampson dibacle, Ohio State fired the coach before Matta becasue of it… and the article said that the BIG TEN was the CLEANEST conference. :-X


#17
[quote="Craftsy21, post:8, topic:1264"]The Brandon Jennings experiment should prove to a lot of young guys that college doesn't have to be their only answer after high school and before the NBA. And that should inspire somebody to get off their butts and have a pro system for guys 18-21.. or even 18-24..[/quote]

I agree with you, it would be great if the US had a league for these players. Jeremy Tyler followed Jennings footsteps, only he left high school after his junior year to go play in Europe (I want to say Israel). He got slammed by a lot of people. It has also proven very difficult for Tyler, at such a young age and pretty immature, to adapt to the culture. Thank goodness Jennings worked out in the NBA, because his experience over seas wasn’t great either.

Can somebody list all the college basketball teams that have had major violations? I know there are a lot of dirty programs out there, but I don’t think that many have had major violations, have they?

Don’t know how many have been CAUGHT in major violations BUT I would guess many have committed major violations.

Well that’s a lot different. Like I said, I know there are dirty coaches out there. I guess I just get tired of this board acting as though the only way to win is cheating. I think there are a lot of coaches out there that win, and can also boast a record of 0 major recruiting violations. I would say more coaches win without major violations than win with them. Maybe I am wrong/naive. One more thing - I want to clarify that I am talking about dirty coaches. Programs can get in trouble for things that are not directly the coaches fault - IE, how Cal has technically never been found guilty of a major NCAA violation. It was shown Cory Maggette took money from an agent while in/before college, Darrell Arthur had his grades changed in high school, etc.

Skeeza, I thought O’Brien was later found to be fired without cause?
On June 8, 2004, then-Ohio State athletic director Andy Geiger fired O’Brien for alleged NCAA rules violations. After a trial during which the former Chairman of the NCAA Committee on Infractions testified that O’Brien had not engaged in a violation of NCAA rules, the Ohio Court of Claims determined that Ohio State breached its contract with O’Brien by terminating him and that the school engaged in conduct that was “not consistent with good faith and fair dealing” in terminating Coach O’Brien and awarded him $2.4 million.

Clem Haskins was fired at Minny though.


#18
[quote="Craftsy21, post:8, topic:1264"]The Brandon Jennings experiment should prove to a lot of young guys that college doesn't have to be their only answer after high school and before the NBA. And that should inspire somebody to get off their butts and have a pro system for guys 18-21.. or even 18-24..[/quote]

I agree with you, it would be great if the US had a league for these players. Jeremy Tyler followed Jennings footsteps, only he left high school after his junior year to go play in Europe (I want to say Israel). He got slammed by a lot of people. It has also proven very difficult for Tyler, at such a young age and pretty immature, to adapt to the culture. Thank goodness Jennings worked out in the NBA, because his experience over seas wasn’t great either.

Can somebody list all the college basketball teams that have had major violations? I know there are a lot of dirty programs out there, but I don’t think that many have had major violations, have they?

Don’t know how many have been CAUGHT in major violations BUT I would guess many have committed major violations.

Well that’s a lot different. Like I said, I know there are dirty coaches out there. I guess I just get tired of this board acting as though the only way to win is cheating. I think there are a lot of coaches out there that win, and can also boast a record of 0 major recruiting violations. I would say more coaches win without major violations than win with them. Maybe I am wrong/naive. One more thing - I want to clarify that I am talking about dirty coaches. Programs can get in trouble for things that are not directly the coaches fault - IE, how Cal has technically never been found guilty of a major NCAA violation. It was shown Cory Maggette took money from an agent while in/before college, Darrell Arthur had his grades changed in high school, etc.

Skeeza, I thought O’Brien was later found to be fired without cause?
On June 8, 2004, then-Ohio State athletic director Andy Geiger fired O’Brien for alleged NCAA rules violations. After a trial during which the former Chairman of the NCAA Committee on Infractions testified that O’Brien had not engaged in a violation of NCAA rules, the Ohio Court of Claims determined that Ohio State breached its contract with O’Brien by terminating him and that the school engaged in conduct that was “not consistent with good faith and fair dealing” in terminating Coach O’Brien and awarded him $2.4 million.

Clem Haskins was fired at Minny though.

…I don’t want to change the coarse of this topic, but to say that O’Brien did not commit a violation would be wrong. The lawyer-speak is sometimes mind-numbing, but he won the wrongful termination case because the violation should not have caused terminsation, even if that was in his contract (sort of)…

Lesson from the Sports Page: Do Not Terminate a Contract Unless the Breach Was Material

Once again, the sports page provides a good lesson in the application of an important business law principle; a breach of a contract must be “material” before it can be the basis for termination of the contract. The trial judge ruled that Mr. O’Brien did, indeed, break NCAA rules, but the judge also ruled that Ohio State violated the employment agreement by firing him, because Mr. O’Brien’s breach was not “material.”

#19

Skeeza - You are correct. I just needed to dig deeper in the wikipedia page. I didn’t follow his firing too closely, but remembered he won a huge sum. Crazy that he was able to get that money, even after being found guilty of breaking the rules.


#20
[quote="manatree, post:9, topic:1264"]The problem isn't lack of minor leagues in basketball, it's the way they are organized, or dis-organized. The reason minor league baseball & hockey works well is that even though each league and team is a separate corporate entity, they are part of an organized and affiliated hierarchy. Right now, there are probably 10 minor league basketball leagues in teh US. However, other than the NBADL, they are all independent, and like the indy baseball leagues, they are very volatile, and considered to be last resorts. if you are a high school kid, you're better off trying to use college and it's stable structure & consistent levels of competition as a means of advancing your basketball career.

I never quite understood why if the NBA considers the WNBA a worthwhile investment, they wouldn’t direct similar attention and resources in transforming the NBADL into a legit minor league. The NBADL has a draft, but does anyone know what the eligibility requirements are for their draft?

The reason baseball works fairly well is not just that high schoolers are eligible for the main draft, it’s that if you enter a 4 year college, you are not elligible to be drafted again until after your Jr year or you turn 21.

This means that high schoolers have three choices.

  1. Get drafted and go to the minor leagues
  2. Go to a JuCo and be eligible for the draft next year
  3. Go to a 4 year college and commit yourself to remaining in school for three years[/quote]

Some very good points. I think the reason the NBA does not built up NBADL is because they do not want it challenge/compete in any way with the NCAA. The NCAA has been the PERFECT minor league for them. It not only gives kids a year or 3 of good basketball but MORE IMPORTANTLY it turns these kids into MEGA stars for the NBA. This HYPE is PRICELESS. Could the NBADL ever reach the status and hype power of the NCAA?? Maybe but I don’t think so.
Bottom line is that the NCAA is a MUCH BETTER minor league for the NBA than the NBADL could ever be.

Don’t forget that MLB and NHL pro teams put substantial resources into their minor league affiliates, while the NCAA develops talent for free.