PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

What I learned from the Ole Miss game


#1

This is gonna kill me more than some others to say this, but, here goes anyway…

Just TWO guys played coming off the bench – Buie and Oliver!!! Lack of bench play will be our downfall come Conference play. It’s a shame, but it looks like that’s the way it’s gonna be.

I posted this on the thread about “What I see from this team”, but here goes again…we are in real “big” trouble if/when our BIGS get in foul trouble. Billy Oliver is not gonna do it himself. And I’m really stunned at Cam Woodyard NOT getting in the game at all. Was he hurt? Was there another reason? Don’t know, just asking.

How about this…What do you guys think about Ed NOT starting one of Jones/Brooks/Jackson, and go with Battle/Frazier/Buie/Jones/Brooks-Jackson?


#2

[quote=“Smitty, post:1, topic:1553”]This is gonna kill me more than some others to say this, but, here goes anyway…

Just TWO guys played coming off the bench – Buie and Oliver!!! Lack of bench play will be our downfall come Conference play. It’s a shame, but it looks like that’s the way it’s gonna be.

I posted this on the thread about “What I see from this team”, but here goes again…we are in real “big” trouble if/when our BIGS get in foul trouble. Billy Oliver is not gonna do it himself. And I’m really stunned at Cam Woodyard NOT getting in the game at all. Was he hurt? Was there another reason? Don’t know, just asking.

How about this…What do you guys think about Ed NOT starting one of Jones/Brooks/Jackson, and go with Battle/Frazier/Buie/Jones/Brooks-Jackson? [/quote]
I’m OK with the starters. I think rewarding the seniors helps team unity. The BigTen teams are much bigger inside than teams we have been playing (not sure about Miss.)
But, it does not matter who starts because the substitution pattern and minutes played may still change a lot each game. Some games we will “go small” most of the game depending on the situation.
I think Cam will play 8th man minutes…just not every game.


#3

There will definitely be games lost due to having one guy on the bench who can play 4/5.


#4

[quote=“Smitty, post:1, topic:1553”]This is gonna kill me more than some others to say this, but, here goes anyway…

Just TWO guys played coming off the bench – Buie and Oliver!!! Lack of bench play will be our downfall come Conference play. It’s a shame, but it looks like that’s the way it’s gonna be.

I posted this on the thread about “What I see from this team”, but here goes again…we are in real “big” trouble if/when our BIGS get in foul trouble. Billy Oliver is not gonna do it himself. And I’m really stunned at Cam Woodyard NOT getting in the game at all. Was he hurt? Was there another reason? Don’t know, just asking.

How about this…What do you guys think about Ed NOT starting one of Jones/Brooks/Jackson, and go with Battle/Frazier/Buie/Jones/Brooks-Jackson? [/quote]

We played zero 3 guard last night. I think you will see Battle/Frazier/Buie/Brooks/Jackson. When you have guys like Cam, Tre, Jermaine, this is where you have depth. UM played 3 guard all night, save for 3 minutes. While of course I didn’t see the game, in prior games, AJ seemed to have trouble positioning. He rarely posts up effectively, usually being 10’ or so from the hoop, which just isn’t good for a guy without a good offensive game. He also has trouble sealing off his cover when he does post up, so the ball can be knocked away when it is passed to him. It’s a huge difference between establishing position 6’ to 8’ from the basket vs. 10’ or so. AJ often pivots away from the hoops as well, preferring a 10-12’ jumper over a drop step or up and under move to the inside. Never understood why Lewis Preston can’t address this. On O, it’s all about establishing position down low, posting up, and pivoting on your inside foot toward the hoop. AJ almost always uses his outside foot as pivot, preferring to go away from contact. That’s usually a move by smaller guys to avoid getting blocked. Not sure what the problem on D is, esp rebounding, but 3 rebounds?


#5

I said in the “what I see from this team” thread and will say it here. ED will never expand his bench. He is comfortable playing 7 and will continue to do so unless forced into playing more.


#6

But, is this a “good thing” or a “bad thing?” I seen many good coaches who have taken the different paths and still ended with successful teams. I usually side with Ed on in game decisions. Knowledge of the players (abilities and personalities) are paramount in making informed personnel decisions. Ed has this knowledge…we do not. Where I differ from most board members is that I hold Ed accountable after the season.


#7

If you remember, when Camm and Babb came in to the program. Camm started to get the minutes before Chris. What happened that Camm has fallen so far down the ladder.


#8

I don’t know - I think he’d be going deeper if Babb and Edwards had stayed. he doesn’t have lots of options. the hopes of making the NCAA took a hit last night, but one loss does not define the whole season. we won’t know a great deal about this team until about January. hopefully they can win at least one of VT/MD and all of the other OOC games.


#9
[quote="Still in State College, post:5, topic:1553"]I said in the "what I see from this team" thread and will say it here. ED will never expand his bench. He is comfortable playing 7 and will continue to do so unless forced into playing more.[/quote]

I don’t know - I think he’d be going deeper if Babb and Edwards had stayed. he doesn’t have lots of options. the hopes of making the NCAA took a hit last night, but one loss does not define the whole season. we won’t know a great deal about this team until about January. hopefully they can win at least one of VT/MD and all of the other OOC games.

MD looked pretty tough, physical in the game I saw. Vs. Texas maybe? Think they lost, but definitely physical. These are usually the teams that give us trouble. VTech similar. IMO, key in VTech game will be fouls on Allen. If the bigs avoid him, and don’t go inside, we’re dead. I know he’s tough,but he’s 6’7", not 6’11", and with big guards, their perimeter D is a killer. Last year their front line was small and we didn’t go inside. I feel good about Brooks. He’s gone much more inside this year. All his baskets last night inside the arc. Get two fouls on Allen in first 8 minutes, maybe an 3rd early in second half, and it could change this game. Unfortunately, our bigs tend to avoid inside play vs. rougher, more physical teams. Can’t do that. Vs. teams with guys 6’11"-7’0"+, it’s understandable, not vs. teams with shorter, rougher big men. Inside height is our edge vs. VTech(or was last year, didn’t check roster this year).


#10

As long as we at least split the MD/Va Tech contests then I still think we’re in good shape provided we win the other non-conference games like we should. Frankly there were times in the Ole Miss game where we had to just make 1 basket which would have swung the momentum our way and just couldn’t get it done. It’s not a terrible loss, but could be costly if we get on the bubble.


#11

Or not get it taken away from us. Battle made a huge momentum changing three point bucket that was taken away when Oliver was called for making an illegal screen.


#12

Playing minutes
Battle –39, Brooks –38 Jackson –37. That rolls up to 114 of the possible 120 minutes available for 3 positions.
In my mind, in game 5 of the season that is not a good strategy, either for those 3 or for building depth for the conference games
Thus, we only played 7 and neither bench player got so much as 20 minutes.
Cam Woodyard, never saw the floor. Cam is a Junior now, who a bunch of us on this board seem to feel, inspite of his shot not falling, can make some positive contributions to this ball team. It’s harder to be a roll player when your roll is so ill defined in playing minutes that the minutes in the first 5 games go:
Lehigh 1, St. Joe’s 19, Fairfield 13, C. Conn 15, Miss. 0
Graph those 5 games and it has to be a head scratcher. If I am Cam I have to be wondering about the incongruity after 5 games of averaging 15 minutes in 3 of those games and 30 seconds in the other two. IMO opinion Parkhill used to do a good job with his first 2-3 bench players where they had the luxury of knowing when the starters would get a blow and they would get their opportunity. Situations like that help the bench player with understanding their role and thus being prepared.
With a scatter of minutes like the one Cam is getting and not getting, I feel his role is not defined and that maybe some of those shots would be a little easier to fall if you felt confident that your role was not subject to whims and the swings of 15 minutes to zero.
When Cam was recruited there was a lot of board conjecture and questioning that he was not worthy of BigTen talent. Based on his playing time against Lehigh and MS what is the coaching staff indicating to that question.


#13

[quote=“Duff, post:12, topic:1553”]Playing minutes
Battle –39, Brooks –38 Jackson –37. That rolls up to 114 of the possible 120 minutes available for 3 positions.
In my mind, in game 5 of the season that is not a good strategy, either for those 3 or for building depth for the conference games
Thus, we only played 7 and neither bench player got so much as 20 minutes.
Cam Woodyard, never saw the floor. Cam is a Junior now, who a bunch of us on this board seem to feel, inspite of his shot not falling, can make some positive contributions to this ball team. It hard to be a roll player when your roll is so ill defined in playing minutes that the minutes in the first 5 games go:
Lehigh 1, St. Joe’s 19, Fairfield 13, C. Conn 15, Miss. 0
Graph those 5 games and it has to be a head scratcher. If I am Cam I have to be wondering about the incongruity after 5 games of averaging 15 minutes in 3 of those games and 30 seconds in the other two. IMO opinion Parkhill used to do a good job with his first 2-3 bench players where they had the luxury of knowing when the starters would get a blow and they would get their opportunity. Situations like that help the bench player with understanding their role and thus being prepared.
With a scatter of minutes like the one Cam is getting and not getting, I feel his role is not defined and that maybe some of those shots would be a little easier to fall if you felt confident that your role was not subject to whims and the swings of 15 minutes to zero.
When Cam was recruited there was a lot of board conjecture and questioning that he was not worthy of BigTen talent. Based on his playing time against Lehigh and MS what is the coaching staff indicating to that question.[/quote]
Duff, Ed always says minutes are earned in practice. I just can’t see how he may have been good enough to earn minutes (major minutes) in 3 games and a total screw up in 2 games.


#14

Exactly, and what was the practice situation in the 3 days between C. Conn and MS?


#15

Cam got on to the court ahead of Taran against CCst. But, Taran responded with a big game and Cam did not seem to have a good game at all.


#16

I made mention of this in another thread. I know its been said time and time again that Ed gives minutes according to how they practice. But this is ridiculous. I wonder if he would forfeit a game if the entire team had a bad practice. Year after year after year we are left scratching our heads at how short the bench is in what has traditionally been a creampuff pre Big 10 schedule. Either his idea of practicing well is unreasonable, or his talent evaluation in the recruiting of these guys has been atrocious. I actually feel like it may be mostly the former. In the end he’s the guy who brought these kids in here. He dealt his own hand so he better figure out a way to make the most of it and he has yet to show he has the ability to do so.


#17
[quote="jjepsu92, post:13, topic:1553"]Duff, Ed always says minutes are earned in practice. I just can't see how he may have been good enough to earn minutes (major minutes) in 3 games and a total screw up in 2 games.[/quote]

I made mention of this in another thread. I know its been said time and time again that Ed gives minutes according to how they practice. But this is ridiculous. I wonder if he would forfeit a game if the entire team had a bad practice. Year after year after year we are left scratching our heads at how short the bench is in what has traditionally been a creampuff pre Big 10 schedule. Either his idea of practicing well is unreasonable, or his talent evaluation in the recruiting of these guys has been atrocious. I actually feel like it may be mostly the former.

IMO, he’s going to have trouble not starting Taran. 7th in minutes and 4th in scoring doesn’t add up. It’s not just shooting percentages, TO’s etc. It’s more than that. Vs. some teams, not just this year, but last as well, this team can tighten up or play timidly, at least some guys. IMO, these games vs. Maryland and VTech are critical. Williams and Allen, the big men on those respective teams, can be dominating, both double digits in rebounds per game. If our bigs don’t step up, IMO, we won’t win. Why Taran? Like Talor, he attacks. You just have to do this. You have to get defenders on their heels and the best way to do that is take it to the rim…til they stop you. Some guys just can’t do it. Some can. Those that can will win spots. IMO, maybe the bench goes deeper as the season goes on. I’d like to see Tre, Cam and Jermaine a bit more. I thought Jermaine looked good in a mop up role a couple games back.


#18

Maybe it is because Ed is a not a very good game coach. It is not the first time Ed has done something that leaves you head scratching, that is why PSU BBall program isn’t very good. No matter how good of shape you are in, it is tough to go 110% all out playing 37-38 minutes, by nature you sneak little breathers on the court here and there. PSU can’t afford to do that and beat good teams. A good coach is going to ‘steal’ 6-8 minutes for Cam or Bowman each night by playing one of them in 2-3 minute spurts one or twice a half going into or out of a TO and get Battle and Brooks and DJ a couple of extra minutes break each half. That is what a good coach would do.


#19
[quote="jjepsu92, post:13, topic:1553"]Duff, Ed always says minutes are earned in practice. I just can't see how he may have been good enough to earn minutes (major minutes) in 3 games and a total screw up in 2 games.[/quote]

I made mention of this in another thread. I know its been said time and time again that Ed gives minutes according to how they practice. But this is ridiculous. I wonder if he would forfeit a game if the entire team had a bad practice. Year after year after year we are left scratching our heads at how short the bench is in what has traditionally been a creampuff pre Big 10 schedule. Either his idea of practicing well is unreasonable, or his talent evaluation in the recruiting of these guys has been atrocious. I actually feel like it may be mostly the former. In the end he’s the guy who brought these kids in here. He dealt his own hand so he better figure out a way to make the most of it and he has yet to show he has the ability to do so.

the sky isn’t falling - yet.


#20
[quote="jjepsu92, post:13, topic:1553"]Duff, Ed always says minutes are earned in practice. I just can't see how he may have been good enough to earn minutes (major minutes) in 3 games and a total screw up in 2 games.[/quote]

I made mention of this in another thread. I know its been said time and time again that Ed gives minutes according to how they practice. But this is ridiculous. I wonder if he would forfeit a game if the entire team had a bad practice. Year after year after year we are left scratching our heads at how short the bench is in what has traditionally been a creampuff pre Big 10 schedule. Either his idea of practicing well is unreasonable, or his talent evaluation in the recruiting of these guys has been atrocious. I actually feel like it may be mostly the former. In the end he’s the guy who brought these kids in here. He dealt his own hand so he better figure out a way to make the most of it and he has yet to show he has the ability to do so.

the sky isn’t falling - yet.

Maryland and VTech will expose the weaknesses/strengths of this team. IMO, in both games we’ll see who can play vs. tough teams vs. weaker opponents. The stats from UMiss and these two games should be looked at closely and in total. I’d like to see more players as well, but it’s unlikely in these two upcoming games if the UMiss contest is any indication.