PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Thoughts on the MSM game


#1

That was ugly. But a win is a win.

I agree with Jerardi - the team looked tired and flat. I got the impression that since we were without two of our lead seven players, other guys knew they were going to have to play a lot and were sort of pacing themselves. Steve Jones said something about five games in 10 days - that’s a lot, but these guys are kids.

We were extremely lucky that MSM shot poorly. I don’t think their poor shooting was due to our excellent defense - they just aren’t very good shooters. Neither are we. I think we have one shooter (Cam) and maybe one other good shooter (Oliver). Talor and Tarran aren’t shooters - they are scorers. Jeff is an athlete who can score. DJ is an occasional shooter who will give you two points, 12 points or 22 points on any given night - you just never know which DJ will show up for a given game. Andrew is good for five points, five boards and five fouls just about every night - no more, no less.

Defense was bad last night - defense is primarily attitude and effort. I didn’t see much of either last night.

Sure wish Andrew Ott was around this year. We’re going to get killed inside in the Big Ten.

Ugly win. Put it behind us; take some time off and then get ready for a very beatable VTech team.


#2

Good summary, Santini. Thanks.

I was thinking of the tired issue. Check out MSM’s schedule:

Nov. 27, 2010 Florida A&M W 70-61 2-3
Nov. 29, 2010 Navy L 81-68 2-4
Dec. 2, 2010 at Sacred Heart W 66-52 3-4 (1-0)
Dec. 4, 2010 at Quinnipiac L 77-75 3-5 (1-1)
Dec. 7, 2010 at Penn State L 57-53 3-6

3 games on the road!


#3

Crowd was horrible ( I’d say about 2,500) and pretty darn quiet. Minus the Military group the student section would have prob had about 100 kids. Ed’s in game coaching was a little ? last night. Bowman had a good stretch going last night and Ed pulled him out , I was hoping Ed would have let him keep playing. Thank god for Jeff Brooks and his long arms or else we would get completely dominated inside. Andrew after 4 years still hasn’t figured out how to play good tough D underneath. Gets beat baseline way to much and has no clue how to play help D. Hopefully its just the early season jitters and he’ll turn it on soon. I liked Taran’s shot selection last night. Brought his jumpshots in a couple feet and also took the ball to the hole a few times. Talor looked absolutely gassed last night.


#4

Good point on the crowd. We’ve got 30,000+ students on campus and only a couple hundred can show up for a game?? Like most PSU crowds, they are passive and wait for things to happen rather than rev up the players and help make things happen. Crowd support is huge in college BB. We really don’t have much of a home court advantage now - other than we don’t have to travel. The kids that show up are good - there just aren’t enough of them.

I’ve noticed the same thing for football in the last couple years. Our student section (which Herbie called the best student section in the country several years ago) has been steadily declining recently. Every football home game, the student section is never full. They use the excuses of “give us a good product on the field, and we’ll show up” or “its hard to get up for a noon game against a MAC opponent” and “the Administration’s ticket policy holds down crowds”, but let’s face it - our student sections are mediocre. The kids that show up are great - but once again, there just aren’t enough of them.


#5

[quote=“Great Santini, post:4, topic:1614”]Good point on the crowd. We’ve got 30,000+ students on campus and only a couple hundred can show up for a game?? Like most PSU crowds, they are passive and wait for things to happen rather than rev up the players and help make things happen. Crowd support is huge in college BB. We really don’t have much of a home court advantage now - other than we don’t have to travel. The kids that show up are good - there just aren’t enough of them.

I’ve noticed the same thing for football in the last couple years. Our student section (which Herbie called the best student section in the country several years ago) has been steadily declining recently. Every football home game, the student section is never full. They use the excuses of “give us a good product on the field, and we’ll show up” or “its hard to get up for a noon game against a MAC opponent” and “the Administration’s ticket policy holds down crowds”, but let’s face it - our student sections are mediocre. The kids that show up are great - but once again, there just aren’t enough of them.[/quote]

This probably isn’t ever the case for football games, but the non-student attendance was pretty pathetic last night as well. Lots and lots of empty seats in lower bowl from baseline to baseline. The adults have to hold up their end of the deal also. The atmosphere was pathetic last night.


#6
[quote="Great Santini, post:4, topic:1614"]Good point on the crowd. We've got 30,000+ students on campus and only a couple hundred can show up for a game?? Like most PSU crowds, they are passive and wait for things to happen rather than rev up the players and help make things happen. Crowd support is huge in college BB. We really don't have much of a home court advantage now - other than we don't have to travel. The kids that show up are good - there just aren't enough of them.

I’ve noticed the same thing for football in the last couple years. Our student section (which Herbie called the best student section in the country several years ago) has been steadily declining recently. Every football home game, the student section is never full. They use the excuses of “give us a good product on the field, and we’ll show up” or “its hard to get up for a noon game against a MAC opponent” and “the Administration’s ticket policy holds down crowds”, but let’s face it - our student sections are mediocre. The kids that show up are great - but once again, there just aren’t enough of them.[/quote]

This probably isn’t ever the case for football games, but the non-student attendance was pretty pathetic last night as well. Lots and lots of empty seats in lower bowl from baseline to baseline. The adults have to hold up their end of the deal also. The atmosphere was pathetic last night.

Maryland was the tipping point. The crowd needed to be 3/4th full for that. it would have carried over into this game, and a bigger crowd against Maryland could have helped the team’s morale and made it a close game in the 2nd half instead of what turned lopsided.

But there are still many opportunities for big crowds this season. Winning helps. And although it wasn’t pretty, we won the game, which is our prime objective. if we weren’t great we wouldn’t have come back strong and beat two solid teams. if we beat Va Tech, i predict home attendance will steadily rise for the remainder of the season, especially for BigTen home games.


#7

Winning is a nice consolation when you play like crap. When you play like crap and lose, there is no consolation.

Reminds me of the PSU-Illinois slugfest from a couple of years ago - horrendously low-scoring game which was awesome because we won. It would have been horrific had we lost.


#8

i just saw the replay of battle’s last second shot. Good God that kid has range.


#9

The PSU basketball crowds have bothered me for a long time. People can point to winning and say if you win they will come, and I certainly agree with that. However, the 2001 Sweet 16 team was still playing to half empty arenas if the game was on a weeknight or especially up until the last couple of games. What can be done about it? Is it simply that the BJC is just way too big and we’ll never have a fanbase that can consistantly pack the place and make a great home court advantage?

It’s frustrating to watch games from around the country from places like Detroit Mercy or Delaware or Portland or St Joe’s and see a packed student section that is rowdy and making it tough on the other team. There are schools with much worse hoops programs than ours that are generating a much better home court advantage. I think part of the problem is that basketball is “the thing to do” at a lot of non-football schools, so everyone kind of jumps on board. When I was in school, I missed 1 hoops game in four years. Granted I’m a basketball junkie, so I planned my schedule around games. But I just can’t see how we only end up wiht ~100 students at a game while school is in session, regardless of the opponent, when we have 40k students to draw from.


#10

That, he does! :slight_smile:

BTN video, Mount St. Mary’s at Penn State - Men’s Basketball Highlights


#11

[quote=“frats, post:9, topic:1614”]The PSU basketball crowds have bothered me for a long time. People can point to winning and say if you win they will come, and I certainly agree with that. However, the 2001 Sweet 16 team was still playing to half empty arenas if the game was on a weeknight or especially up until the last couple of games. What can be done about it? Is it simply that the BJC is just way too big and we’ll never have a fanbase that can consistantly pack the place and make a great home court advantage?

It’s frustrating to watch games from around the country from places like Detroit Mercy or Delaware or Portland or St Joe’s and see a packed student section that is rowdy and making it tough on the other team. There are schools with much worse hoops programs than ours that are generating a much better home court advantage. I think part of the problem is that basketball is “the thing to do” at a lot of non-football schools, so everyone kind of jumps on board. When I was in school, I missed 1 hoops game in four years. Granted I’m a basketball junkie, so I planned my schedule around games. But I just can’t see how we only end up wiht ~100 students at a game while school is in session, regardless of the opponent, when we have 40k students to draw from.[/quote]I think Curley and friends have sent a message to the students and psu fans everywhere that basketball is an after thought. I think most have got that message loud and clear and have found better things to do with their time. I like you am a junkie and will continue to make that 2 hour trek to all home games but most fans/students are just sick of it. I was just hoping more would show up to support Talor during his senior season. Without him and what he’s done these past 4 years could you imagine where PSU would be? :’( :’(


#12

A few thoughts on why attendance is low:

  1. For many people up here, Penn State basketball is just like any other Penn State sport, such as soccer or wrestling or field hockey. There is simply no interest or ‘buzz’

  2. Yes, there are 40,000 students, but not all of them live on campus or directly near campus. Many of them live in apartments further away, well outside of walking distance. They might justify making the treks for 8 home football games, but why would they want to drop big bucks for parking just to see 2 poor teams during the week?

  3. The cold weather might turn off kids who would otherwise go on a whim, particularly the ones who would have to walk a long distance.

  4. It’s the last week of the semester, and many have term papers/exams to focus on.

  5. Many people just don’t want to go basketball games. This will sound sexist, but good luck getting a group of girls to show up to the BJC just to watch the game (as opposed to football games).

  6. For as many kids show up to football games, you would be amazed (or maybe not) how many would not show up if there was no drinking/tailgating involved. If a basketball game involved huge amounts of drinking all day long, attendance would be through the roof.

  7. The team just doesn’t look very good this year.

Just some thoughts. Don’t shoot the messenger (me). I’m just relaying what my friends tell me and what I hear from people around school.


#13

Parking is free!


#14

[quote=“CynicalSenior@MainCampus, post:12, topic:1614”]A few thoughts on why attendance is low:

  1. For many people up here, Penn State basketball is just like any other Penn State sport, such as soccer or wrestling or field hockey. There is simply no interest or ‘buzz’

  2. Yes, there are 40,000 students, but not all of them live on campus or directly near campus. Many of them live in apartments further away, well outside of walking distance. They might justify making the treks for 8 home football games, but why would they want to drop big bucks for parking just to see 2 poor teams during the week?

  3. The cold weather might turn off kids who would otherwise go on a whim, particularly the ones who would have to walk a long distance.

  4. It’s the last week of the semester, and many have term papers/exams to focus on.

  5. Many people just don’t want to go basketball games. This will sound sexist, but good luck getting a group of girls to show up to the BJC just to watch the game (as opposed to football games).

  6. For as many kids show up to football games, you would be amazed (or maybe not) how many would not show up if there was no drinking/tailgating involved. If a basketball game involved huge amounts of drinking all day long, attendance would be through the roof.

  7. The team just doesn’t look very good this year.

Just some thoughts. Don’t shoot the messenger (me). I’m just relaying what my friends tell me and what I hear from people around school.[/quote]

Here are my thoughts (and I was there from 95-99, so it hasn’t been THAT long since I was in the same situation…

1 - I agree completely, which is part of the issue. But I don’t even think that it’s just PSU hoops. Go to a sports bar in town on a night during the winter, and you’ll usually see 3-4 times as many hockey fans there as you’ll see basketball fans. Many of my friends were huge PSU football, NFL, baseball, and even NHL fans. But very few cared about the NBA or college hoops, expect for the NCAA tourney. I think it’s just the culture of central and western Pennsylvania, and one of those hurdles that people often discuss that any coach will have to overcome.

2 - I lived in Cedarbrook my last 2 years, and while it wasn’t extremely far from the BJC, it’s wasn’t exactly next door. Regardless, the 25-30 minute walk never stopped me from walking up to a men’s or women’s game. When UConn plays a game in Hartford or Georgetown at the Verizon center, there isn’t a single student that can walk, but yet they’ll pack thousands of them in. I really hope we hit the day where a little bit of a walk or a short drive isn’t enough to keep students away. Is there another school in the Big Ten (seeing as though we’re trying to compete against our peers) where so few students go to games because of the distance to the arena? I see Indiana packing them in when they are awful, Iowa packing them in when they’re awful, even Northwestern was getting a lot more students when they were bad. Winning will of course help, but should it really be this bad when we’re losing?

3 - Same as my answer to #2. It’s cold everywhere in the Big Ten. I’m sure it was freezing in Bloomington when they were losing game after game the last two years, but they had a packed house every night.

4 - I wish it was that simple. But the student turnout didn’t just suddenly turn south last night.

5 - When I was up there, you’d see several groups of girls at basketball game. Certainly not the same guy-girl ratio you’d see at a football game, but there were plenty of girls that were behind the team.

6 - I agree that tailgating would increase attendance. However, you have gyms all across the country packed with students who aren’t tailgating, so why should PSU be that much different?

7 - Agreed. But increase attendance would certainly help them out. I’ve probably watched over a hundred games this season so far, and the only “home court advantage” that I can even compare to the BJC (outside of the MD game, which was still disappointing) was Northeastern playing in the TD Bank arena in front of a thousand fans. It had the exact same feel to it, a really small group of students and a bunch of empty seats and no noise. A team like MSM coming to the BJC is their Super Bowl, and it’s too bad that we didn’t have any type of advantage to try and intimidate them.

Really, I don’t have any answers, it’s just frustrating to see. There was so much buzz around the team in the 95-96 season where you had over 4k student tickets sold, students camping out for nights on end for front row seats, students sitting right on top of the court and making it a great environment, the entire buliding packed, even for weeknight games, etc. And it wasn’t all due to winning, since they sold all those student tickets before the team ever started winning. They were coming off a NIT season, and yet they sold 5X as many student packages as last year’s team that was coming off an NIT championship. If you gave us crowds like we’ve had lately in 95-96, I don’t think that team runs the table at home. Something has to be done, but I don’t think it’s nearly as simple as getting a new coach in here. It’s almost like the entire culture needs to change.


#15
[quote="CynicalSenior@MainCampus, post:12, topic:1614"]A few thoughts on why attendance is low:
  1. For many people up here, Penn State basketball is just like any other Penn State sport, such as soccer or wrestling or field hockey. There is simply no interest or ‘buzz’

  2. Yes, there are 40,000 students, but not all of them live on campus or directly near campus. Many of them live in apartments further away, well outside of walking distance. They might justify making the treks for 8 home football games, but why would they want to drop big bucks for parking just to see 2 poor teams during the week?

  3. The cold weather might turn off kids who would otherwise go on a whim, particularly the ones who would have to walk a long distance.

  4. It’s the last week of the semester, and many have term papers/exams to focus on.

  5. Many people just don’t want to go basketball games. This will sound sexist, but good luck getting a group of girls to show up to the BJC just to watch the game (as opposed to football games).

  6. For as many kids show up to football games, you would be amazed (or maybe not) how many would not show up if there was no drinking/tailgating involved. If a basketball game involved huge amounts of drinking all day long, attendance would be through the roof.

  7. The team just doesn’t look very good this year.

Just some thoughts. Don’t shoot the messenger (me). I’m just relaying what my friends tell me and what I hear from people around school.[/quote]

Here are my thoughts (and I was there from 95-99, so it hasn’t been THAT long since I was in the same situation…

1 - I agree completely, which is part of the issue. But I don’t even think that it’s just PSU hoops. Go to a sports bar in town on a night during the winter, and you’ll usually see 3-4 times as many hockey fans there as you’ll see basketball fans. Many of my friends were huge PSU football, NFL, baseball, and even NHL fans. But very few cared about the NBA or college hoops, expect for the NCAA tourney. I think it’s just the culture of central and western Pennsylvania, and one of those hurdles that people often discuss that any coach will have to overcome.

2 - I lived in Cedarbrook my last 2 years, and while it wasn’t extremely far from the BJC, it’s wasn’t exactly next door. Regardless, the 25-30 minute walk never stopped me from walking up to a men’s or women’s game. When UConn plays a game in Hartford or Georgetown at the Verizon center, there isn’t a single student that can walk, but yet they’ll pack thousands of them in. I really hope we hit the day where a little bit of a walk or a short drive isn’t enough to keep students away. Is there another school in the Big Ten (seeing as though we’re trying to compete against our peers) where so few students go to games because of the distance to the arena? I see Indiana packing them in when they are awful, Iowa packing them in when they’re awful, even Northwestern was getting a lot more students when they were bad. Winning will of course help, but should it really be this bad when we’re losing?

3 - Same as my answer to #2. It’s cold everywhere in the Big Ten. I’m sure it was freezing in Bloomington when they were losing game after game the last two years, but they had a packed house every night.

4 - I wish it was that simple. But the student turnout didn’t just suddenly turn south last night.

5 - When I was up there, you’d see several groups of girls at basketball game. Certainly not the same guy-girl ratio you’d see at a football game, but there were plenty of girls that were behind the team.

6 - I agree that tailgating would increase attendance. However, you have gyms all across the country packed with students who aren’t tailgating, so why should PSU be that much different?

7 - Agreed. But increase attendance would certainly help them out. I’ve probably watched over a hundred games this season so far, and the only “home court advantage” that I can even compare to the BJC (outside of the MD game, which was still disappointing) was Northeastern playing in the TD Bank arena in front of a thousand fans. It had the exact same feel to it, a really small group of students and a bunch of empty seats and no noise. A team like MSM coming to the BJC is their Super Bowl, and it’s too bad that we didn’t have any type of advantage to try and intimidate them.

Really, I don’t have any answers, it’s just frustrating to see. There was so much buzz around the team in the 95-96 season where you had over 4k student tickets sold, students camping out for nights on end for front row seats, students sitting right on top of the court and making it a great environment, the entire buliding packed, even for weeknight games, etc. And it wasn’t all due to winning, since they sold all those student tickets before the team ever started winning. They were coming off a NIT season, and yet they sold 5X as many student packages as last year’s team that was coming off an NIT championship. If you gave us crowds like we’ve had lately in 95-96, I don’t think that team runs the table at home. Something has to be done, but I don’t think it’s nearly as simple as getting a new coach in here. It’s almost like the entire culture needs to change.

Put a good product on the court and the kids will show up in droves. The student section was fantastic for most of 2008-2009. It’s that simple. Maryland could’ve been a turning point for attendance, but the guys shot 20% and got embarrassed at home.

After an 11-20 season, I don’t blame people for not showing up. This team has to win big games and they haven’t done that for a very long time.


#16
i just saw the replay of battle's last second shot. Good God that kid has range.

That, he does! :slight_smile:

BTN video, Mount St. Mary’s at Penn State - Men’s Basketball Highlights

Check out Andrew Jones in the entire sequence. In the 1st half on Cam’s trey, he’s kind of boxing out, not really establishing position for a pass, and in the 2nd half segment, he is looking to rebound before the ball is even shot and he sets screens, and not very good ones. Why doesn’t Ed do something about this. AJ basically takes himself out of the offense. It just makes no sense.


#17
[quote="Great Santini, post:4, topic:1614"]Good point on the crowd. We've got 30,000+ students on campus and only a couple hundred can show up for a game?? Like most PSU crowds, they are passive and wait for things to happen rather than rev up the players and help make things happen. Crowd support is huge in college BB. We really don't have much of a home court advantage now - other than we don't have to travel. The kids that show up are good - there just aren't enough of them.

I’ve noticed the same thing for football in the last couple years. Our student section (which Herbie called the best student section in the country several years ago) has been steadily declining recently. Every football home game, the student section is never full. They use the excuses of “give us a good product on the field, and we’ll show up” or “its hard to get up for a noon game against a MAC opponent” and “the Administration’s ticket policy holds down crowds”, but let’s face it - our student sections are mediocre. The kids that show up are great - but once again, there just aren’t enough of them.[/quote]

This probably isn’t ever the case for football games, but the non-student attendance was pretty pathetic last night as well. Lots and lots of empty seats in lower bowl from baseline to baseline. The adults have to hold up their end of the deal also. The atmosphere was pathetic last night.

I’m in section 120, first row above the students. There was no one else in my row. There was no one in the row behind me. There was no one in the row behind that. Half the seats in the next row up were filled. Last year, almost every single one of those seats was full every game.


#18

[quote=“frats, post:9, topic:1614”]The PSU basketball crowds have bothered me for a long time. People can point to winning and say if you win they will come, and I certainly agree with that. However, the 2001 Sweet 16 team was still playing to half empty arenas if the game was on a weeknight or especially up until the last couple of games. What can be done about it? Is it simply that the BJC is just way too big and we’ll never have a fanbase that can consistantly pack the place and make a great home court advantage?

It’s frustrating to watch games from around the country from places like Detroit Mercy or Delaware or Portland or St Joe’s and see a packed student section that is rowdy and making it tough on the other team. There are schools with much worse hoops programs than ours that are generating a much better home court advantage. I think part of the problem is that basketball is “the thing to do” at a lot of non-football schools, so everyone kind of jumps on board. When I was in school, I missed 1 hoops game in four years. Granted I’m a basketball junkie, so I planned my schedule around games. But I just can’t see how we only end up wiht ~100 students at a game while school is in session, regardless of the opponent, when we have 40k students to draw from.[/quote]

Sorry but Penn State has such a deep rooted tradition of losing that it will take a lot to overcome this and win back fans other than the diehards. All the talk of other factors is just that, talk. It’s simple get a coach who can win consistently at an elite level and you will have fans, lots of them. DeChellis has reinforced the tradition of losing to the point it is almost unbearable to watch his teams. Sure the NIT championship was nice and that did bring lots of fans out of the woodwork. But you get the feeling this happened because the seniors excelled in spite of incredibly poor coaching. No one and I mean no one with any sense expected this miracle to transform a poorly run program into one that could win consistently. Guess what? Surprise, the program is right back where it’s always been, a mediocre team that is in no way competitive in the Big Ten. The fact that anyone shows up for games is a minor miracle.


#19

The crowds will come with the right coach. There is ZERO buzz around this program. It’s amazing they have let this guy run this program for 8 years. Makes no sense to me and never will.


#20

[quote=“CynicalSenior@MainCampus, post:12, topic:1614”]A few thoughts on why attendance is low:

  1. For many people up here, Penn State basketball is just like any other Penn State sport, such as soccer or wrestling or field hockey. There is simply no interest or ‘buzz’

  2. Yes, there are 40,000 students, but not all of them live on campus or directly near campus. Many of them live in apartments further away, well outside of walking distance. They might justify making the treks for 8 home football games, but why would they want to drop big bucks for parking just to see 2 poor teams during the week?

  3. The cold weather might turn off kids who would otherwise go on a whim, particularly the ones who would have to walk a long distance.

  4. It’s the last week of the semester, and many have term papers/exams to focus on.

  5. Many people just don’t want to go basketball games. This will sound sexist, but good luck getting a group of girls to show up to the BJC just to watch the game (as opposed to football games).

  6. For as many kids show up to football games, you would be amazed (or maybe not) how many would not show up if there was no drinking/tailgating involved. If a basketball game involved huge amounts of drinking all day long, attendance would be through the roof.

  7. The team just doesn’t look very good this year.

Just some thoughts. Don’t shoot the messenger (me). I’m just relaying what my friends tell me and what I hear from people around school.[/quote]
Good insightful post. I had a discussion with a friend on this same topic and his answer really hit home with me-PSU basketball is not relevant and won’t be until major changes are made. It IS possible for PSU basketball to one day become RELEVANT.