PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Ranking the B1G guards


#1

Frazier comes in at #5 on this list.

http://www.umhoops.com/2011/10/10/2011-12-big-ten-position-by-position-guards/


#2

…also seen at the bottom:

[b]Near Misses [/b](in no particular order): Josh Gasser (Wisconsin), Terone Johnson (Purdue), Shannon Scott (Ohio State), Tracy Abrams (Illinois), Verdell Jones III (Indiana), [i]Trey Burke (Michigan)[/i]

#3

In general kind of “slim pickings” for a 12 team league. :slight_smile:
The Wisc. kid is good but kind of robotic. The to$u kid is nice but benefits greatly by playing on a powerhouse team. Don’t see him as a stand alone talent.

I like Frazier to make All BigTen1112 first team.
Go Lions!!


#4

[quote=“tundra, post:3, topic:2723”]In general kind of “slim pickings” for a 12 team league. :slight_smile:
The Wisc. kid is good but kind of robotic. The to$u kid is nice but benefits greatly by playing on a powerhouse team. Don’t see him as a stand alone talent.

I like Frazier to make All BigTen1112 first team.
Go Lions!![/quote]

I think the list is very accurate. I might flip Tim and Lewis Jackson. That is just based on personal preference because Lewis Jackson is a lock down defender and a very solid point guard, I just like Tim more.

And by Jordan Taylor being ‘kind of robotic’ I hope you are saying that because that is how all point guards should be ‘programmed’ to play and not that it is a bad thing.

Aaron Craft could definitely win Big Ten Defensive player of the year. Quick feet, strong as an ox, and is on a good defensive team that will help make him look even better if someone does manage to get by him.


#5

[quote=“tundra, post:3, topic:2723”]In general kind of “slim pickings” for a 12 team league. :slight_smile:
The Wisc. kid is good but kind of robotic. The to$u kid is nice but benefits greatly by playing on a powerhouse team. Don’t see him as a stand alone talent.

I like Frazier to make All BigTen1112 first team.
Go Lions!![/quote]

I can go with Aaron Craft not being a stand alone talent, but then Frazier can make 1st team Big Ten? I don’t follow.

And Nebraska has an LSU transfer (forget his name) that should be on that list.


#6

Not a bad review, but have to question their assertion that Tim will be the focal point of the offense. Its just not his game. We’ll need him to step up and score more than last year, but I just don’t see him averaging much more than 10 points per game.


#7

Tim will need to upgrade his scoring BUT he should get to the basket and foul line a lot this year. Plus, his pull-up jumper is not bad.
Remember the team chemistry will be much different this season. Last year Tim was the youngest guy, by atleast 2 seasons, on the starting five. This season, Tim may/will be “the main man.” This should inspire confidence!


#8

I was and have been the biggest Tim supporter in the world, but even I tend to think that he will take a step back this year. He is literally the only guy teams are going to have a real scouting report on to start the season, or at least one that they are going to concern themselves with.

To go from being the last guy opponents worry about on the floor to the first is going to be a pretty ridiculous move for him and it’s going to take some time to adjust to that. Maybe more time than he has left here at PSU.

I loved him as a support guy and I still think he’s a great passing point guard, but scoring is not in his nature and will be even less so when you lean on him to do it.

Here’s hoping he proves me wrong, or that the support around him is better than I think right now and he’s able to continue being the assist man more than the points man. But I have a bad feeling about these next two years for his style of play.


#9

[quote=“Craftsy21, post:8, topic:2723”]I was and have been the biggest Tim supporter in the world, but even I tend to think that he will take a step back this year. He is literally the only guy teams are going to have a real scouting report on to start the season, or at least one that they are going to concern themselves with.

To go from being the last guy opponents worry about on the floor to the first is going to be a pretty ridiculous move for him and it’s going to take some time to adjust to that. Maybe more time than he has left here at PSU.

I loved him as a support guy and I still think he’s a great passing point guard, but scoring is not in his nature and will be even less so when you lean on him to do it.

Here’s hoping he proves me wrong, or that the support around him is better than I think right now and he’s able to continue being the assist man more than the points man. But I have a bad feeling about these next two years for his style of play.[/quote]

I don’t think he was the last guy teams worried about last year. Since he has the ball a lot, I’d put him about 3rd at worst – behind Battle and Brooks. There will be 4 other guys on the court with him again this year. Sure none will be Battle. But I have a feeling a couple of these guys can play. If anything, guarding Frazier tighter should lead to others being open and more assists.


#10
I was and have been the biggest Tim supporter in the world, but even I tend to think that he will take a step back this year. He is literally the only guy teams are going to have a real scouting report on to start the season, or at least one that they are going to concern themselves with.

To go from being the last guy opponents worry about on the floor to the first is going to be a pretty ridiculous move for him and it’s going to take some time to adjust to that. Maybe more time than he has left here at PSU.

I loved him as a support guy and I still think he’s a great passing point guard, but scoring is not in his nature and will be even less so when you lean on him to do it.

Here’s hoping he proves me wrong, or that the support around him is better than I think right now and he’s able to continue being the assist man more than the points man. But I have a bad feeling about these next two years for his style of play.

I don’t think he was the last guy teams worried about last year. Since he has the ball a lot, I’d put him about 3rd at worst – behind Battle and Brooks. There will be 4 other guys on the court with him again this year. Sure none will be Battle. But I have a feeling a couple of these guys can play. If anything, guarding Frazier tighter should lead to others being open and more assists.

That’s the biggest problem, and I agree with Crafty. In order to get an assist, the teammate has to SCORE THE BALL.

I don’t see that happening a whole lot this season. Who is going to be doing the scoring?


#11

IMO I think Tim will do really well, both in scoring and leading. I think most of the year the team itself (or at least Ed felt that he) had to “protect” such a small rotation by slowing it down to a half-court game. Tim was one of the quickest, if not THE quickest guys on the court last year and when the gameplan seemed to change more to a faster tempo - especially during big10 tourney - he thrived. A really quick PG isn’t a great “fit” for scoring in a slow-it-down strategy AND with Battle and Brooks on the court.

I think PC’s style could cater more toward fast/quick guard-play - and not to mention a NEED for a larger rotation off the bench. A tempo much like we played during the big10 tourney - which was NOT how we played during the regular schedule - will be better suited to our roster, and definitely Tim averages better that 10 pts. Pfffffft.


#12
[quote="Craftsy21, post:8, topic:2723"]I was and have been the biggest Tim supporter in the world, but even I tend to think that he will take a step back this year. He is literally the only guy teams are going to have a real scouting report on to start the season, or at least one that they are going to concern themselves with.

To go from being the last guy opponents worry about on the floor to the first is going to be a pretty ridiculous move for him and it’s going to take some time to adjust to that. Maybe more time than he has left here at PSU.

I loved him as a support guy and I still think he’s a great passing point guard, but scoring is not in his nature and will be even less so when you lean on him to do it.

Here’s hoping he proves me wrong, or that the support around him is better than I think right now and he’s able to continue being the assist man more than the points man. But I have a bad feeling about these next two years for his style of play.[/quote]

I don’t think he was the last guy teams worried about last year. Since he has the ball a lot, I’d put him about 3rd at worst – behind Battle and Brooks. There will be 4 other guys on the court with him again this year. Sure none will be Battle. But I have a feeling a couple of these guys can play. If anything, guarding Frazier tighter should lead to others being open and more assists.

That’s the biggest problem, and I agree with Crafty. In order to get an assist, the teammate has to SCORE THE BALL.

I don’t see that happening a whole lot this season. Who is going to be doing the scoring?

It’s not like this team will be devoid of talent. Certainly the players who will surround Timmy this year will know how to score the ball. Against some of the tougher Big Ten defenses, we’ll see. But to just write off this year and the talent that goes with it, is quite shortsighted.

People step up. Kids who didn’t have the opportunity in the past will seize that opportunity when given the chance and the playing time.

As a youth coach, I’ve wondered that myself after losing key players or having players out due to illness or injury. Who will step up? More times than not, I discover something that I didn’t know I had in my players.

For that reason, I love the possibilities with this team because there is such an unknown about them.


#13
[quote="Craftsy21, post:8, topic:2723"]I was and have been the biggest Tim supporter in the world, but even I tend to think that he will take a step back this year. He is literally the only guy teams are going to have a real scouting report on to start the season, or at least one that they are going to concern themselves with.

To go from being the last guy opponents worry about on the floor to the first is going to be a pretty ridiculous move for him and it’s going to take some time to adjust to that. Maybe more time than he has left here at PSU.

I loved him as a support guy and I still think he’s a great passing point guard, but scoring is not in his nature and will be even less so when you lean on him to do it.

Here’s hoping he proves me wrong, or that the support around him is better than I think right now and he’s able to continue being the assist man more than the points man. But I have a bad feeling about these next two years for his style of play.[/quote]

I don’t think he was the last guy teams worried about last year. Since he has the ball a lot, I’d put him about 3rd at worst – behind Battle and Brooks. There will be 4 other guys on the court with him again this year. Sure none will be Battle. But I have a feeling a couple of these guys can play. If anything, guarding Frazier tighter should lead to others being open and more assists.

That’s the biggest problem, and I agree with Crafty. In order to get an assist, the teammate has to SCORE THE BALL.

I don’t see that happening a whole lot this season. Who is going to be doing the scoring?

It’s not like this team will be devoid of talent. Certainly the players who will surround Timmy this year will know how to score the ball. Against some of the tougher Big Ten defenses, we’ll see. But to just write off this year and the talent that goes with it, is quite shortsighted.

People step up. Kids who didn’t have the opportunity in the past will seize that opportunity when given the chance and the playing time.

As a youth coach, I’ve wondered that myself after losing key players or having players out due to illness or injury. Who will step up? More times than not, I discover something that I didn’t know I had in my players.

For that reason, I love the possibilities with this team because there is such an unknown about them.

I think this sort of thinking (that somebody else will step up) is true at low level (middle and high school) and high levels (pro) of sport, but at the college level can be a little tricky. Will somebody physically fill the space on the floor for us? Sure, but the degree to which they’re able to “step up” could be a very wide range.

I mean, why has PSU basketball been so pathetic more often than not the last 50 years if it’s just a matter of somebody stepping up? Surely those opportunities have existed nearly ever season.

I think we have a lot of guys that could potentially be okay in a few years, but you see more busts than surprises at the 2 and 3 star level of players we’re bringing in. For every Talor Battle there’s a laundry list of guys that never amount to anything. And even for every guy like David Jackson, you probably have 2 or 3 guys that never become THAT good… which many around here still don’t feel like he ever lived up to his full potential as a player.

There’s a reason these guys are at PSU right now instead of a better basketball school. I think it’s exciting that we have a bunch of unknowns all getting to play together, but a little emotionally reckless to put much hope into what’s going to come out of the oven when you mix them all together. That is to say, my hopes are pretty low but I’m interested in seeing it for myself.


#14

In other words, everywhere but college. ::slight_smile:

I don’t think so.


#15
[quote="Craftsy21, post:8, topic:2723"]I was and have been the biggest Tim supporter in the world, but even I tend to think that he will take a step back this year. He is literally the only guy teams are going to have a real scouting report on to start the season, or at least one that they are going to concern themselves with.

To go from being the last guy opponents worry about on the floor to the first is going to be a pretty ridiculous move for him and it’s going to take some time to adjust to that. Maybe more time than he has left here at PSU.

I loved him as a support guy and I still think he’s a great passing point guard, but scoring is not in his nature and will be even less so when you lean on him to do it.

Here’s hoping he proves me wrong, or that the support around him is better than I think right now and he’s able to continue being the assist man more than the points man. But I have a bad feeling about these next two years for his style of play.[/quote]

I don’t think he was the last guy teams worried about last year. Since he has the ball a lot, I’d put him about 3rd at worst – behind Battle and Brooks. There will be 4 other guys on the court with him again this year. Sure none will be Battle. But I have a feeling a couple of these guys can play. If anything, guarding Frazier tighter should lead to others being open and more assists.

That’s the biggest problem, and I agree with Crafty. In order to get an assist, the teammate has to SCORE THE BALL.

I don’t see that happening a whole lot this season. Who is going to be doing the scoring?

It’s not like this team will be devoid of talent. Certainly the players who will surround Timmy this year will know how to score the ball. Against some of the tougher Big Ten defenses, we’ll see. But to just write off this year and the talent that goes with it, is quite shortsighted.

People step up. Kids who didn’t have the opportunity in the past will seize that opportunity when given the chance and the playing time.

As a youth coach, I’ve wondered that myself after losing key players or having players out due to illness or injury. Who will step up? More times than not, I discover something that I didn’t know I had in my players.

For that reason, I love the possibilities with this team because there is such an unknown about them.

I think this sort of thinking (that somebody else will step up) is true at low level (middle and high school) and high levels (pro) of sport, but at the college level can be a little tricky. Will somebody physically fill the space on the floor for us? Sure, but the degree to which they’re able to “step up” could be a very wide range.

I mean, why has PSU basketball been so pathetic more often than not the last 50 years if it’s just a matter of somebody stepping up? Surely those opportunities have existed nearly ever season.

I think we have a lot of guys that could potentially be okay in a few years, but you see more busts than surprises at the 2 and 3 star level of players we’re bringing in. For every Talor Battle there’s a laundry list of guys that never amount to anything. And even for every guy like David Jackson, you probably have 2 or 3 guys that never become THAT good… which many around here still don’t feel like he ever lived up to his full potential as a player.

There’s a reason these guys are at PSU right now instead of a better basketball school. I think it’s exciting that we have a bunch of unknowns all getting to play together, but a little emotionally reckless to put much hope into what’s going to come out of the oven when you mix them all together. That is to say, my hopes are pretty low but I’m interested in seeing it for myself.

To have a player or 2 step up is somewhat reasonable, but we have to replace 4(FOUR) starters. Even with a player or two stepping up with Timmy, those 3 will NOT be good enough to carry a team.

I am a fan and try to stay optimistic, but let’s not kid ourselves, we will only be setting ourselves up for a HUGE disappointment when the season comes around. Frazier and 4 kids who had us holding our breathe when the starters sat for a rest last year. Reality is, they WILL NOT be good.


#16
I think this sort of thinking (that somebody else will step up)[b] is true at low level (middle and high school) and high levels[/b] (pro) of sport, but at the college level can be a little tricky.

In other words, everywhere but college. ::slight_smile:

I don’t think so.

There aren’t a whole lot of scrubs playing in the pros, if you make it that far it’s not by accident. And in high school the talent disparity and continuing improvement can be so great that amazing things can happen even during the span of one season for some players growth.

This doesn’t happen a lot in college. Especially when you recruit players the caliber that PSU typically does - guys that you’re taking a bit of risk on every single time. Especially big men.

Sure, every guy on our roster would like to step up. But most are going to be over-matched playing full-time against guys their own size and speed for the first time in their careers.

And if I’m wrong on this, then explain to me why we’ve been such a miserable program consistently?


#17
[quote="Craftsy21, post:13, topic:2723"]I think this sort of thinking (that somebody else will step up)[b] is true at low level (middle and high school) and high levels[/b] (pro) of sport, but at the college level can be a little tricky.[/quote]

In other words, everywhere but college. ::slight_smile:

I don’t think so.

There aren’t a whole lot of scrubs playing in the pros, if you make it that far it’s not by accident. And in high school the talent disparity and continuing improvement can be so great that amazing things can happen even during the span of one season for some players growth.

This doesn’t happen a lot in college. Especially when you recruit players the caliber that PSU typically does - guys that you’re taking a bit of risk on every single time. Especially big men.

Sure, every guy on our roster would like to step up. But most are going to be over-matched playing full-time against guys their own size and speed for the first time in their careers.

And if I’m wrong on this, then explain to me why we’ve been such a miserable program consistently?

Who said anything about us?

You made a blanket statement about ALL of college.


#18
[quote="Craftsy21, post:8, topic:2723"]I was and have been the biggest Tim supporter in the world, but even I tend to think that he will take a step back this year. He is literally the only guy teams are going to have a real scouting report on to start the season, or at least one that they are going to concern themselves with.

To go from being the last guy opponents worry about on the floor to the first is going to be a pretty ridiculous move for him and it’s going to take some time to adjust to that. Maybe more time than he has left here at PSU.

I loved him as a support guy and I still think he’s a great passing point guard, but scoring is not in his nature and will be even less so when you lean on him to do it.

Here’s hoping he proves me wrong, or that the support around him is better than I think right now and he’s able to continue being the assist man more than the points man. But I have a bad feeling about these next two years for his style of play.[/quote]

I don’t think he was the last guy teams worried about last year. Since he has the ball a lot, I’d put him about 3rd at worst – behind Battle and Brooks. There will be 4 other guys on the court with him again this year. Sure none will be Battle. But I have a feeling a couple of these guys can play. If anything, guarding Frazier tighter should lead to others being open and more assists.

That’s the biggest problem, and I agree with Crafty. In order to get an assist, the teammate has to SCORE THE BALL.

I don’t see that happening a whole lot this season. Who is going to be doing the scoring?

It’s not like this team will be devoid of talent. Certainly the players who will surround Timmy this year will know how to score the ball. Against some of the tougher Big Ten defenses, we’ll see. But to just write off this year and the talent that goes with it, is quite shortsighted.

People step up. Kids who didn’t have the opportunity in the past will seize that opportunity when given the chance and the playing time.

As a youth coach, I’ve wondered that myself after losing key players or having players out due to illness or injury. Who will step up? More times than not, I discover something that I didn’t know I had in my players.

For that reason, I love the possibilities with this team because there is such an unknown about them.

I think this sort of thinking (that somebody else will step up) is true at low level (middle and high school) and high levels (pro) of sport, but at the college level can be a little tricky. Will somebody physically fill the space on the floor for us? Sure, but the degree to which they’re able to “step up” could be a very wide range.

I mean, why has PSU basketball been so pathetic more often than not the last 50 years if it’s just a matter of somebody stepping up? Surely those opportunities have existed nearly ever season.

I think we have a lot of guys that could potentially be okay in a few years, but you see more busts than surprises at the 2 and 3 star level of players we’re bringing in. For every Talor Battle there’s a laundry list of guys that never amount to anything. And even for every guy like David Jackson, you probably have 2 or 3 guys that never become THAT good… which many around here still don’t feel like he ever lived up to his full potential as a player.

There’s a reason these guys are at PSU right now instead of a better basketball school. I think it’s exciting that we have a bunch of unknowns all getting to play together, but a little emotionally reckless to put much hope into what’s going to come out of the oven when you mix them all together. That is to say, my hopes are pretty low but I’m interested in seeing it for myself.

To have a player or 2 step up is somewhat reasonable, but we have to replace 4(FOUR) starters. Even with a player or two stepping up with Timmy, those 3 will NOT be good enough to carry a team.

I am a fan and try to stay optimistic, but let’s not kid ourselves, we will only be setting ourselves up for a HUGE disappointment when the season comes around. Frazier and 4 kids who had us holding our breathe when the starters sat for a rest last year. Reality is, they WILL NOT be good.

I agree. I think it’s completely possible we don’t win a league game this season. I blame Babb and Edwards for this primarily, this was always going to be a rebuilding year but the cupboard is completely bare now after losing 4 starters and 2 guys that would definitely be starting this year.

All that said, I’m still excited. We should learn a lot this season about our new coach and our new players, but I don’t expect to learn it through a bunch of wins.


#19
[quote="Craftsy21, post:13, topic:2723"]I think this sort of thinking (that somebody else will step up)[b] is true at low level (middle and high school) and high levels[/b] (pro) of sport, but at the college level can be a little tricky.[/quote]

In other words, everywhere but college. ::slight_smile:

I don’t think so.

There aren’t a whole lot of scrubs playing in the pros, if you make it that far it’s not by accident. And in high school the talent disparity and continuing improvement can be so great that amazing things can happen even during the span of one season for some players growth.

This doesn’t happen a lot in college. Especially when you recruit players the caliber that PSU typically does - guys that you’re taking a bit of risk on every single time. Especially big men.

Sure, every guy on our roster would like to step up. But most are going to be over-matched playing full-time against guys their own size and speed for the first time in their careers.

And if I’m wrong on this, then explain to me why we’ve been such a miserable program consistently?

Who said anything about us?

You made a blanket statement about ALL of college.

Gee Lar, I don’t know… this is a PSU hoops board and we are talking about this year’s PSU basketball team.

If you have a counterpoint you’d like to offer, feel free. ::slight_smile:


#20
[quote="Craftsy21, post:13, topic:2723"]I think this sort of thinking (that somebody else will step up)[b] is true at low level (middle and high school) and high levels[/b] (pro) of sport, but at the college level can be a little tricky.[/quote]

In other words, everywhere but college. ::slight_smile:

I don’t think so.

There aren’t a whole lot of scrubs playing in the pros, if you make it that far it’s not by accident. And in high school the talent disparity and continuing improvement can be so great that amazing things can happen even during the span of one season for some players growth.

This doesn’t happen a lot in college. Especially when you recruit players the caliber that PSU typically does - guys that you’re taking a bit of risk on every single time. Especially big men.

Sure, every guy on our roster would like to step up. But most are going to be over-matched playing full-time against guys their own size and speed for the first time in their careers.

And if I’m wrong on this, then explain to me why we’ve been such a miserable program consistently?

Who said anything about us?

You made a blanket statement about ALL of college.

Gee Lar, I don’t know… this is a PSU hoops board and we are talking about this year’s PSU basketball team.

If you have a counterpoint you’d like to offer, feel free. ::slight_smile:

And in order to draw a conclusion about Penn State, you made a blanket statement about all of college basketball. I’m simply stating that it’s silly to think that “someone stepping up” can, BY YOUR OWN STATEMENT, happen in middle school, happen in high school, and happen in the pros but not happen in college? Really? ::slight_smile: