Putting it in perspective


#1

I’ve been reading the board the past few days and I’ve been suprised to see that we’re hitting the panice button after a 15 point win. It’s not that I dont think we have room to improve, but I do think that there are some things we should keep in mind, in regards to this team, last season and what we expected to see going into this game.

What we know:

We’re young: Nobody should have been suprised by that. The guys that have been around have new roles, and the young guys are just young.lol.Going into this game for the most part you should have expected to see a few things not played out quite to 100%. That includes scoring. We aren’t top team and we’re not going to come out and play like we ended the season. Rust is a matter of fact and we worked it off pretty well. In his first game back Drew Jones was double teamed for almost the whole game, and while he didn’t have a great game, he still managed to pull down 5 boards. It’ safe to say that nobody expects his average ppg to be 4, so I think his first game back being double teamed it isn’t a big deal. He was 2-4 and 1 of those misses rolled in and out. So you make him 3-4 and he shot 75% while being double teamed, that really isn’t that bad. On the defensive side, where a team could have let Penn take a lead somewhere in the second half they always kept it out of reach. We’ve all seen last years team give up a lead or two, but these guys didn’t let that happen.

We needed to find scoring: Last season in the home opener we have 5 points off the bench, this year we had 16 points off the bench. The key to making up for the guys we’ve lost isn’t finding 2 guys besides Talor to drop 18 points every game, we dont have those type of players, it’s going to be about everybody scoring. Even with the youth of the team we still skipped the scoring drought that we always had last year. Sure we had a few times when Talor was the only guy playing but thats nothing really new. Jodie Meeks didn’t score 54 against Tenn last year because the rest of his team was bad (well part of it) he did it because he was really good. Good players are going to score, it’s a scary idea that we’re relying on Talor so much. But UNC was relying on Hansbrough, Nova on Scottie R, Purdue on Robbie Hummel, they all had a good supporting cast it’s true, but I think that we have the unit that can grow around the star. And it’s worth mentioning that we scored 70 points…I’ll take that average, thats going to get you pretty close to winning a lot of Big Ten games.

Defense: If we’re going to grow we’re going to have to play good defense. Twice now against two different teams that shoot the 3 well we’ve held them well below their average, and that isn’t for a lack of them trying. Penn shot 37% for the whole game. If we can play that sort of defense all season that’s a good sign.

I know that we didn’t play up to where we need to be, but going into this game I was looking for the potential for growth, I feel like I saw that. Do we need to keep the growth going? Yes. But am I running around with my hair on fire? No. We’ve played one game, we won by 15 and we have potential. Lets move on to Monday.


#2

aren’t you one of the people who thinks we’ll make the tournament this year?

just curious, when you talk about perspective - what you’re expectations are…


#3

[quote=“Craftsy21, post:2, topic:247”]aren’t you one of the people who thinks we’ll make the tournament this year?

just curious, when you talk about perspective - what you’re expectations are…[/quote]

I think that we could make it, but I would be very happy with another NIT berth. It shows that we can maintain a high level of sucess in comparison to what we’re used to. We made the madness and then dropped back down into the basement. Making the NIT keeps you at a sucess level that we haven’t had two years straight.

I feel like throwing up the hands after the first game is a bit premature, stats dont lie, and having a reasonable outlook on a game helps keep the blood pressure down. It’s true we could not be very good this year, but the fact of the matter is we’ve played 1(2) games and we just dont know yet. At the start of last year you wouldn’t have expected how that season turned out…so who knows what up next for us. I have high expectations, but I try and approach anaylysis without much bias. It doesn’t do me any good to lie to myself…I want to expect the best, but I’ve seen enough Penn State basketball to know when it isn’t gonna look good for a season…I dont think we’re at that point yet.


#4
[quote="Craftsy21, post:2, topic:247"]aren't you one of the people who thinks we'll make the tournament this year?

just curious, when you talk about perspective - what you’re expectations are…[/quote]

I think that we could make it, but I would be very happy with another NIT berth. It shows that we can maintain a high level of sucess in comparison to what we’re used to. We made the madness and then dropped back down into the basement. Making the NIT keeps you at a sucess level that we haven’t had two years straight.

I feel like throwing up the hands after the first game is a bit premature, stats dont lie, and having a reasonable outlook on a game helps keep the blood pressure down. It’s true we could not be very good this year, but the fact of the matter is we’ve played 1(2) games and we just dont know yet. At the start of last year you wouldn’t have expected how that season turned out…so who knows what up next for us. I have high expectations, but I try and approach anaylysis without much bias. It doesn’t do me any good to lie to myself…I want to expect the best, but I’ve seen enough Penn State basketball to know when it isn’t gonna look good for a season…I dont think we’re at that point yet.

I’m with you, I don’t think there is any need to panic, there is just a lot to work on. And we did start out slow last year, too, even in the wins.


#5

NGameday, NC had supporting cast? I’d say so. Ellington and Lawson are in the pros. Nova’s Dante Cunningham is also not only in the pros, but he was Nova’s best player last year.

Andrew Jones, DJ and Brooks are not in new roles. Not panicking, but the front line has to rebound, play tough D, and score. If that’s asking too much, so be it. Last year, PSU played lots of 3 guard offense with Danny at the 3, Cornley at the 4 and either Jones or Ott. I think you either see lots of that, 3 guard(in different combos), or different 3 man front line. I thought Penn front line looked better than ours. Here’s some interesting stats:

Scoring by players 6’6" and above, minutes played and rebounds. I did add Woodyard here, as he is most forward like of 6’5" PSU players, and I tried to even out minutes. Babb is in shorter list.

6’6" and above, plus Woodyard
Penn- 44 points in 130 minutes, and 20 rebounds
Penn State-29 points in 122 minutes, and 17 rebounds

Scoring by player 6’5" and shorter
Penn - 11 points in 70 minutes, and 11 rebounds
Penn State - 41 points in 78 minutes, and 15 rebounds

I think the numbers speak for themselves.


#6

[quote=“kidcoyote, post:5, topic:247”]NGameday, NC had supporting cast? I’d say so. Ellington and Lawson are in the pros. Nova’s Dante Cunningham is also not only in the pros, but he was Nova’s best player last year.

Andrew Jones, DJ and Brooks are not in new roles. Not panicking, but the front line has to rebound, play tough D, and score. If that’s asking too much, so be it. Last year, PSU played lots of 3 guard offense with Danny at the 3, Cornley at the 4 and either Jones or Ott. I think you either see lots of that, 3 guard(in different combos), or different 3 man front line. I thought Penn front line looked better than ours. Here’s some interesting stats:

Scoring by players 6’6" and above, minutes played and rebounds. I did add Woodyard here, as he is most forward like of 6’5" PSU players, and I tried to even out minutes. Babb is in shorter list.

6’6" and above, plus Woodyard
Penn- 44 points in 130 minutes, and 20 rebounds
Penn State-29 points in 122 minutes, and 17 rebounds

Scoring by player 6’5" and shorter
Penn - 11 points in 70 minutes, and 11 rebounds
Penn State - 41 points in 78 minutes, and 15 rebounds

I think the numbers speak for themselves.[/quote]

Good stuff as always. And I suppose I picked a few stacked teams to look at…I’m just saying its early. But I know what you’re getting at, we do have a ways to go if we want to stay in the hunt.


#7

We all know. There’s just nothing else to discuss except the Penn game and the many issues with the team’s performance.

And kid, I agree there needs to be some more production from the frontcourt. But you keep harping about how they have to rebound. They do. You act like Talor goes in there, boxes out big men, and then out jumps them for the board. I couldn’t care how we do it, as long as we rebound as a TEAM, which I feel like we’ve always done well at. We did a great job on the defensive glass for the most part…the only offensive boards Penn got were long rebounds.

I was surprised how inactive we were on the offensive glass, though, but that could be because of Jones’ foul trouble. We need to do a better job on the offensive glass and I’m sure Ed’s been preaching it this weekend.


#8

[quote=“kidcoyote, post:5, topic:247”]NGameday, NC had supporting cast? I’d say so. Ellington and Lawson are in the pros. Nova’s Dante Cunningham is also not only in the pros, but he was Nova’s best player last year.

Andrew Jones, DJ and Brooks are not in new roles. Not panicking, but the front line has to rebound, play tough D, and score. If that’s asking too much, so be it. Last year, PSU played lots of 3 guard offense with Danny at the 3, Cornley at the 4 and either Jones or Ott. I think you either see lots of that, 3 guard(in different combos), or different 3 man front line. I thought Penn front line looked better than ours. Here’s some interesting stats:

Scoring by players 6’6" and above, minutes played and rebounds. I did add Woodyard here, as he is most forward like of 6’5" PSU players, and I tried to even out minutes. Babb is in shorter list.

6’6" and above, plus Woodyard
Penn- 44 points in 130 minutes, and 20 rebounds
Penn State-29 points in 122 minutes, and 17 rebounds

Scoring by player 6’5" and shorter
Penn - 11 points in 70 minutes, and 11 rebounds
Penn State - 41 points in 78 minutes, and 15 rebounds

I think the numbers speak for themselves.[/quote]

Sure the numbers speak for themselves - but what are they saying?

Simply that Penn had a front court oriented offense while PSU had a more guard oriented offense. So what?

Last I heard, people say that college hoops is guard dominated.

BTW - for the season last year, 55% of our points were scored by the guards.
Friday - 59% of the points were scored by the guards.

Is that really a big enough difference (basically one basket) that we should be worried? I don’t think so.


#9
[quote="kidcoyote, post:5, topic:247"]NGameday, NC had supporting cast? I'd say so. Ellington and Lawson are in the pros. Nova's Dante Cunningham is also not only in the pros, but he was Nova's best player last year.

Andrew Jones, DJ and Brooks are not in new roles. Not panicking, but the front line has to rebound, play tough D, and score. If that’s asking too much, so be it. Last year, PSU played lots of 3 guard offense with Danny at the 3, Cornley at the 4 and either Jones or Ott. I think you either see lots of that, 3 guard(in different combos), or different 3 man front line. I thought Penn front line looked better than ours. Here’s some interesting stats:

Scoring by players 6’6" and above, minutes played and rebounds. I did add Woodyard here, as he is most forward like of 6’5" PSU players, and I tried to even out minutes. Babb is in shorter list.

6’6" and above, plus Woodyard
Penn- 44 points in 130 minutes, and 20 rebounds
Penn State-29 points in 122 minutes, and 17 rebounds

Scoring by player 6’5" and shorter
Penn - 11 points in 70 minutes, and 11 rebounds
Penn State - 41 points in 78 minutes, and 15 rebounds

I think the numbers speak for themselves.[/quote]

Sure the numbers speak for themselves - but what are they saying?

Simply that Penn had a front court oriented offense while PSU had a more guard oriented offense. So what?

Last I heard, people say that college hoops is guard dominated.

BTW - for the season last year, 55% of our points were scored by the guards.
Friday - 59% of the points were scored by the guards.

Is that really a big enough difference (basically one basket) that we should be worried? I don’t think so.

Well said and my thoughts exactly Lar. So we are a guard oriented team and depend on the backcourt for our scoring. Lots of teams lean one way or the other. As long as a team is not totally one-sided you can be productive and win games.


#10

[quote=“NGameday, post:1, topic:247”]I’ve been reading the board the past few days and I’ve been suprised to see that we’re hitting the panice button after a 15 point win. It’s not that I dont think we have room to improve, but I do think that there are some things we should keep in mind, in regards to this team, last season and what we expected to see going into this game.

What we know:

We’re young: Nobody should have been suprised by that. The guys that have been around have new roles, and the young guys are just young.lol.Going into this game for the most part you should have expected to see a few things not played out quite to 100%. That includes scoring. We aren’t top team and we’re not going to come out and play like we ended the season. Rust is a matter of fact and we worked it off pretty well. In his first game back Drew Jones was double teamed for almost the whole game, and while he didn’t have a great game, he still managed to pull down 5 boards. It’ safe to say that nobody expects his average ppg to be 4, so I think his first game back being double teamed it isn’t a big deal. He was 2-4 and 1 of those misses rolled in and out. So you make him 3-4 and he shot 75% while being double teamed, that really isn’t that bad. On the defensive side, where a team could have let Penn take a lead somewhere in the second half they always kept it out of reach. We’ve all seen last years team give up a lead or two, but these guys didn’t let that happen.

We needed to find scoring: Last season in the home opener we have 5 points off the bench, this year we had 16 points off the bench. The key to making up for the guys we’ve lost isn’t finding 2 guys besides Talor to drop 18 points every game, we dont have those type of players, it’s going to be about everybody scoring. Even with the youth of the team we still skipped the scoring drought that we always had last year. Sure we had a few times when Talor was the only guy playing but thats nothing really new. Jodie Meeks didn’t score 54 against Tenn last year because the rest of his team was bad (well part of it) he did it because he was really good. Good players are going to score, it’s a scary idea that we’re relying on Talor so much. But UNC was relying on Hansbrough, Nova on Scottie R, Purdue on Robbie Hummel, they all had a good supporting cast it’s true, but I think that we have the unit that can grow around the star. And it’s worth mentioning that we scored 70 points…I’ll take that average, thats going to get you pretty close to winning a lot of Big Ten games.

Defense: If we’re going to grow we’re going to have to play good defense. Twice now against two different teams that shoot the 3 well we’ve held them well below their average, and that isn’t for a lack of them trying. Penn shot 37% for the whole game. If we can play that sort of defense all season that’s a good sign.

I know that we didn’t play up to where we need to be, but going into this game I was looking for the potential for growth, I feel like I saw that. Do we need to keep the growth going? Yes. But am I running around with my hair on fire? No. We’ve played one game, we won by 15 and we have potential. Lets move on to Monday.[/quote]

I’ve been trying to assess the scoring like this. Talor needs to score 18-20 each game. The other 4 starters need to score about 35 pre game and the bench adds 10-15. This gets the team to the 65-70 range and that will keep you in lots of games and you’ll win quite a few. Each game it can be different person stepping up, as Brooks and Highberger did Friday, as long as the cumulative numbers are close.


#11
[quote="kidcoyote, post:5, topic:247"]NGameday, NC had supporting cast? I'd say so. Ellington and Lawson are in the pros. Nova's Dante Cunningham is also not only in the pros, but he was Nova's best player last year.

Andrew Jones, DJ and Brooks are not in new roles. Not panicking, but the front line has to rebound, play tough D, and score. If that’s asking too much, so be it. Last year, PSU played lots of 3 guard offense with Danny at the 3, Cornley at the 4 and either Jones or Ott. I think you either see lots of that, 3 guard(in different combos), or different 3 man front line. I thought Penn front line looked better than ours. Here’s some interesting stats:

Scoring by players 6’6" and above, minutes played and rebounds. I did add Woodyard here, as he is most forward like of 6’5" PSU players, and I tried to even out minutes. Babb is in shorter list.

6’6" and above, plus Woodyard
Penn- 44 points in 130 minutes, and 20 rebounds
Penn State-29 points in 122 minutes, and 17 rebounds

Scoring by player 6’5" and shorter
Penn - 11 points in 70 minutes, and 11 rebounds
Penn State - 41 points in 78 minutes, and 15 rebounds

I think the numbers speak for themselves.[/quote]

Sure the numbers speak for themselves - but what are they saying?

Simply that Penn had a front court oriented offense while PSU had a more guard oriented offense. So what?

Last I heard, people say that college hoops is guard dominated.

BTW - for the season last year, 55% of our points were scored by the guards.
Friday - 59% of the points were scored by the guards.

Is that really a big enough difference (basically one basket) that we should be worried? I don’t think so.

Yes, Lar, guards dominate, but if the Penn front line is going to dominate PSU’s front line, what are Big 10 front lines going to do vs. PSU? I know what is likely to happen. PSU will be getting beat up inside, and having trouble scoring inside, then they’ll go to launching 3’s, and the opponent’s defense will widen to take away the 3, and PSU will shoot the 3 poorly. And you’ll say, “we need to shoot 3’s better.” That won’t be it. This is what happened two years ago with Claxton out, then Cornley. It needs to be more balanced scoring. Somebody needs to be willing to get beaten up inside. Jones is willing, as is Ott. We just need more points inside. After Battle, 8 buckets inside the arc is poor. And if you do that vs. Penn, you think it gets easier vs. Big 10 teams?


#12

At no point while watching that game did I get the feeling that Penn was “dominating” the PSU front line.


#13
[quote="kidcoyote, post:5, topic:247"]NGameday, NC had supporting cast? I'd say so. Ellington and Lawson are in the pros. Nova's Dante Cunningham is also not only in the pros, but he was Nova's best player last year.

Andrew Jones, DJ and Brooks are not in new roles. Not panicking, but the front line has to rebound, play tough D, and score. If that’s asking too much, so be it. Last year, PSU played lots of 3 guard offense with Danny at the 3, Cornley at the 4 and either Jones or Ott. I think you either see lots of that, 3 guard(in different combos), or different 3 man front line. I thought Penn front line looked better than ours. Here’s some interesting stats:

Scoring by players 6’6" and above, minutes played and rebounds. I did add Woodyard here, as he is most forward like of 6’5" PSU players, and I tried to even out minutes. Babb is in shorter list.

6’6" and above, plus Woodyard
Penn- 44 points in 130 minutes, and 20 rebounds
Penn State-29 points in 122 minutes, and 17 rebounds

Scoring by player 6’5" and shorter
Penn - 11 points in 70 minutes, and 11 rebounds
Penn State - 41 points in 78 minutes, and 15 rebounds

I think the numbers speak for themselves.[/quote]

Sure the numbers speak for themselves - but what are they saying?

Simply that Penn had a front court oriented offense while PSU had a more guard oriented offense. So what?

Last I heard, people say that college hoops is guard dominated.

BTW - for the season last year, 55% of our points were scored by the guards.
Friday - 59% of the points were scored by the guards.

Is that really a big enough difference (basically one basket) that we should be worried? I don’t think so.

Yes, Lar, guards dominate, but if the Penn front line is going to dominate PSU’s front line, what are Big 10 front lines going to do vs. PSU? I know what is likely to happen. PSU will be getting beat up inside, and having trouble scoring inside, then they’ll go to launching 3’s, and the opponent’s defense will widen to take away the 3, and PSU will shoot the 3 poorly. And you’ll say, “we need to shoot 3’s better.” That won’t be it. This is what happened two years ago with Claxton out, then Cornley. It needs to be more balanced scoring. Somebody needs to be willing to get beaten up inside. Jones is willing, as is Ott. We just need more points inside. After Battle, 8 buckets inside the arc is poor. And if you do that vs. Penn, you think it gets easier vs. Big 10 teams?

They didn’t dominate, they scored more points - there’s a difference.


#14
[quote="kidcoyote, post:11, topic:247"]Yes, Lar, guards dominate, but if the Penn front line is going to dominate PSU's front line, what are Big 10 front lines going to do vs. PSU?[/quote]

At no point while watching that game did I get the feeling that Penn was “dominating” the PSU front line.

I wouldn’t have said dominate either, but Eggleston and Bernadini combined for 25 points in combined 50 minutes. PSU’s two front line starters, Brooks & DJ, combined for 15 points in 53 minutes. I think Delvon Roe and Raymar Morgan may be tougher comp than Penn’s duo.


#15
[quote="kidcoyote, post:5, topic:247"]NGameday, NC had supporting cast? I'd say so. Ellington and Lawson are in the pros. Nova's Dante Cunningham is also not only in the pros, but he was Nova's best player last year.

Andrew Jones, DJ and Brooks are not in new roles. Not panicking, but the front line has to rebound, play tough D, and score. If that’s asking too much, so be it. Last year, PSU played lots of 3 guard offense with Danny at the 3, Cornley at the 4 and either Jones or Ott. I think you either see lots of that, 3 guard(in different combos), or different 3 man front line. I thought Penn front line looked better than ours. Here’s some interesting stats:

Scoring by players 6’6" and above, minutes played and rebounds. I did add Woodyard here, as he is most forward like of 6’5" PSU players, and I tried to even out minutes. Babb is in shorter list.

6’6" and above, plus Woodyard
Penn- 44 points in 130 minutes, and 20 rebounds
Penn State-29 points in 122 minutes, and 17 rebounds

Scoring by player 6’5" and shorter
Penn - 11 points in 70 minutes, and 11 rebounds
Penn State - 41 points in 78 minutes, and 15 rebounds

I think the numbers speak for themselves.[/quote]

Sure the numbers speak for themselves - but what are they saying?

Simply that Penn had a front court oriented offense while PSU had a more guard oriented offense. So what?

Last I heard, people say that college hoops is guard dominated.

BTW - for the season last year, 55% of our points were scored by the guards.
Friday - 59% of the points were scored by the guards.

Is that really a big enough difference (basically one basket) that we should be worried? I don’t think so.

Well said and my thoughts exactly Lar. So we are a guard oriented team and depend on the backcourt for our scoring. Lots of teams lean one way or the other. As long as a team is not totally one-sided you can be productive and win games.

With Battle, Pringle, and to some extent Danny, we were much more experienced in the backcourt last season than we were in the frontcourt, and it was expected that our scoring would come from guards. Battle is our only real experienced guard returning with Babb having received good minutes last season. In the frontcourt, DJ, Jones, Brooks, and to some extent Ott, all received lots of minutes last season. Based on the experience of our frontcourt vs. the experience of our backcourt, I think it is fair to expect more scoring from the frontcourt this season. If our backcourt is going to lead us again is scoring, who is going to help Battle? Who is going to be the Pringle? I would think it is more likely for Jones, Brooks and DJ to be 2-4 in scoring, than it is to assume Babb, Frazier and Woodyard will be 2-4. We might want to be a guard oriented team, but our experience seems to be in the frontcourt.


#16

Got my answer for this game…a guard-oriented 3-point barrage by committee. 13 of 27 first half FG attempts were triples.