Post NIT


#1

After all the crying and whining and complaints of subterfuge and conspiracy were forgotten last season and the team went on to win the NIT, it was presented as opinion that the team was better off for winning the NIT than making the NCAA Tournament and losing.

One season later, look at how each team has “rebounded” from their NIT Final Four run:

Notre Dame: 21-10, 10-8 Big East, primed for an NCAA bid, 64 RPI enetring today’s game
Baylor: 24-6, 11-5 Big 12, a “lock” for an NCAA bid, 10 RPI entering today’s game
San Diego State, 21-8, 10-5 Mountain West, on the bubble with an RPI of 33 entering tonight’s game
Penn State, 11-19, 3-15 Big Ten, an RPI of 189 entering today’s game.

FYI, this doesn’t even take into account several other teams that made the NIT last season and have had solid, if not remarkable season this year. Kansas State, who lost in second round of NIT are 24-5 this season, in second place of the Big 12. New Mexico, who lost in the second round of the NIT, are 28-3 this season and wnners of the Mountain West Conference. Virginia Tech, who lost in the second round of the NIT, are 23-7 this season, and in a tie for third place in the ACC. St. Mary’s, who lost in the quarterfinals of the NIT, are 24-5 this season, and finished in 2nd place of the WCC. Not even mentioned are teams that are still flirting with an NCA bid, who
either made the NIT or won at least one game, including Kentucky, Florida, Rhode Island, UAB, Georgetown and UNLV.

In fact, of all the teams that were not considered “automatic qualifiers” for the NIT for winning their respective conferences, only Nebraska, Providence and Auburn also finished with a losing record and none finished their season with a record as bad as PSU.

So, just how much “better off” was the team for making the NIT, let alone winning it? I seem to recall arguments that there was supposed to be a positive benefit from this title run? There was supposed to be a positive benefit from the additional practice and playing time that would transfer over into this season? It seems to have helped benefit the other three teams that made the Final Four of the NIT, but where is the benefit for PSU?


#2

I’d be interested in looking at the teams who went one-and-done in the NCAA last year, compared with these final four NIT runs. That may be a bit more meaningful if the discussion is NIT final four vs. One-and-done NIT.


#3

Some of those teams lost some key players too. ND lost Ayers and McAlarney, Baylor lost 2 of their top 4 scorers, San Diego lost 2 of their top 3 and I bet some of those other teams you listed lost some too.

PSU lost 3 keys players, but my point is that some of these teams doing well this year lost some similar talent as well. Its tough to ignore that PSU lost 2.5 starters, though.


#4

Perhaps that can be looked at as well. My contention was the opinion that was offered up often that the team was better off going to NIT, which would provide additional practice time, game time, etc., etc.

While that additional time seems to have benefited the other three teams who joined PSU in New York City, it didn’t seem to help the Lions.


#5
[quote="State4Life, post:2, topic:925"]I'd be interested in looking at the teams who went one-and-done in the NCAA last year, compared with these final four NIT runs. That may be a bit more meaningful if the discussion is NIT final four vs. One-and-done NIT.[/quote] Perhaps that can be looked at as well. My contention was the opinion that was offered up often that the team was better off going to NIT, which would provide additional practice time, game time, etc., etc.

While that additional time seems to have benefited the other three teams who joined PSU in New York City, it didn’t seem to help the Lions.

Definitely not enough production from the '08 incomings, Babb, Oliver, Woodyard and Ott, so last year’s seniors not replaced well enough. Not sure of other NIT teams. Team will be better next year. I bet they’re in top 5-6. Next year, Babb will be better than Stan and Danny were their senior year, IMO. Frontcourt still the issue, as Cornley not replaced. I’m hopeful on Sasa, and AJ and Brooks showed some improvement. DJ’s a fine 3. As Buie is a better rebounder than Talor, he should lead the team, no? I’d rate Buie for next year the #1 rebounder, #3 trey shooter, #2 handle, #1 mid-range shot, #1 finishing at the rim, and by far, #1 defender vs. top 2’s in league. He can be sick on D if he wants to be. Even if Taran’s skill level has to develop to play DI, like Talor, he doesn’t choke, but steps up in crunch time. Invaluable trait. Team will be fun to watch.


#6
I'd be interested in looking at the teams who went one-and-done in the NCAA last year, compared with these final four NIT runs. That may be a bit more meaningful if the discussion is NIT final four vs. One-and-done NIT.
Perhaps that can be looked at as well. My contention was the opinion that was offered up often that the team was better off going to NIT, which would provide additional practice time, game time, etc., etc.

While that additional time seems to have benefited the other three teams who joined PSU in New York City, it didn’t seem to help the Lions.

Spike I railed against this opinion hard last year. Who was the NIT run good for last year? The short sighted fans out there and nobody else. Yippee, we got to see a few extra games! Do you think Cornley was happier with the NIT title than he would have been with an NCAA bid? Do you think any of the players were glad to have been left out of the NCAA’s in retrospect because of the NIT title? Those 5 extra games sure did a lot of good this season. I suppose we would have started off 0-17 if we had missed out on those games last year. ::slight_smile:


#7

The idea that winning the NIT would have a tangible benefit this season is nothing more than wishful thinking. Regardless of how last season ended, they had to replace three seniors from last year’s team. Despite winning the NIT, I think it was very difficult for the team in the offseason to refocus on a new season after knowing how much they accomplished last season yet being robbed of their place in the NCAA tournament that they deserved. Even going into this season, when Battle was interviewed he was already talking about making the NCAA Tournament this year. The problem with that is you can’t think about the NCAA tournament in November. Because you have to make sure you don’t lose more than 2 non conference games go give yourself a chance and momentum going into the BigTen. When you feel “pressure” to schedule harder non conference games, then you lose 4 non conference games (two games in a preseason tournament against sub-par teams) it’s hard to get that momentum going into BigTen conference play like last year. And yeah, it looks good when you list the teams that were in the NIT Final Four last year and how they are doing this year.

Baylor is having a solid year. Baylor was a solid team last year. They have seemingly improved this year. Big12 isn’t as tough game in game out as the BigTen, but an RPI of 10 is very impressive and they certainly could be a dangerous tournament team. Haven’t seen them play too much this year but I think they play a lot of zone defense.

Nothing is surprising about Notre Dame’s 21-10, 10-8 record. They beat UConn. Michigan beat UConn. The bottom 4 Big East teams aren’t very good. If PSU played Notre Dame right now there’s a good chance PSU beats Notre Dame. Notre Dame is an average team. They may make the tournament, but they are nothing special.

San Diego St is 21-8, and 10-5 in the Mountain West. Do you believe that San Diego St is that much better than PSU this year? If they played 10 games, maybe San Diego St wins 6 and PSU wins 4 or something. PSU would probably go 10-5 if they played in the Mountain West.

So, this is a good thread Spike because it’s true that these teams are having better years than PSU. But could these teams really go into MSU and be within a possession of Michigan State? Could they take Wisconsin to overtime in Madison? I don’t know the answer to that question. And i’m not gunna say that a 3-15 BigTen team is as good as winning records in other conferences. But it’s more difficult to win game in game out in the BigTen than it is in other conferences like the Big12 or the Mountain West. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. But of course it’s just a matter of opinion, which is why I believe teams playing in top RPI conferences should get the benefit of the doubt, especially when they have a good year with big wins on their resume and not any bad losses. At the same time, none of these teams finished 4th place in a major RPI conference last year and got snubbed from the NCAAs, and felt a need to prove that they deserved an NCAA bid in the NIT last year. That effort should have been witnessed in the NCAAs. It’s been said a million times but it’s certainly relevant to this thread to state this again. Getting selected would have done wonders for the team. Because they wouldn’t have felt like this year was so much of an uphill journey. Sometimes there’s a tipping point, and you can get the benefit of the doubt or get left out. Well PSU got left out last year and although they have played hard this season, they haven’t satisfied many, and justifiably so. I think for guys like Brooks, Jones, and Battle, playing in the tournament last year would have done wonders for the team’s confidence. It would have given them the ability to test the NCAA waters and see how far they have gotten. Now it’s just a big unknown and now doubt has undoubtedly crept in to an extent.

So, there may have been people that said that winning the NIT last year could translate into this season. If PSU didn’t get an appropriate return on their investment last year, and overachieved last year, or even if PSU got what they deserved, I don’t think too many PSU fans in their heart of hearts believed that winning the NIT was going to automatically translate into another huge season. I think that’s a bit naive, and insults the collective intelligence of most PSU fans. Still, the comparison of teams in the NIT last year and their success this year is interesting indeed.


#8

[quote=“PSUChamp08, post:7, topic:925”]The idea that winning the NIT would have a tangible benefit this season is nothing more than wishful thinking. Regardless of how last season ended, they had to replace three seniors from last year’s team. Despite winning the NIT, I think it was very difficult for the team in the offseason to refocus on a new season after knowing how much they accomplished last season yet being robbed of their place in the NCAA tournament that they deserved. Even going into this season, when Battle was interviewed he was already talking about making the NCAA Tournament this year. The problem with that is you can’t think about the NCAA tournament in November. Because you have to make sure you don’t lose more than 2 non conference games go give yourself a chance and momentum going into the BigTen. When you feel “pressure” to schedule harder non conference games, then you lose 4 non conference games (two games in a preseason tournament against sub-par teams) it’s hard to get that momentum going into BigTen conference play like last year. And yeah, it looks good when you list the teams that were in the NIT Final Four last year and how they are doing this year.

Baylor is having a solid year. Baylor was a solid team last year. They have seemingly improved this year. Big12 isn’t as tough game in game out as the BigTen, but an RPI of 10 is very impressive and they certainly could be a dangerous tournament team. Haven’t seen them play too much this year but I think they play a lot of zone defense.

Nothing is surprising about Notre Dame’s 21-10, 10-8 record. They beat UConn. Michigan beat UConn. The bottom 4 Big East teams aren’t very good. If PSU played Notre Dame right now there’s a good chance PSU beats Notre Dame. Notre Dame is an average team. They may make the tournament, but they are nothing special.

San Diego St is 21-8, and 10-5 in the Mountain West. Do you believe that San Diego St is that much better than PSU this year? If they played 10 games, maybe San Diego St wins 6 and PSU wins 4 or something. PSU would probably go 10-5 if they played in the Mountain West.

So, this is a good thread Spike because it’s true that these teams are having better years than PSU. But could these teams really go into MSU and be within a possession of Michigan State? Could they take Wisconsin to overtime in Madison? I don’t know the answer to that question. And i’m not gunna say that a 3-15 BigTen team is as good as winning records in other conferences. But it’s more difficult to win game in game out in the BigTen than it is in other conferences like the Big12 or the Mountain West. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. But of course it’s just a matter of opinion, which is why I believe teams playing in top RPI conferences should get the benefit of the doubt, especially when they have a good year with big wins on their resume and not any bad losses. At the same time, none of these teams finished 4th place in a major RPI conference last year and got snubbed from the NCAAs, and felt a need to prove that they deserved an NCAA bid in the NIT last year. That effort should have been witnessed in the NCAAs. It’s been said a million times but it’s certainly relevant to this thread to state this again. Getting selected would have done wonders for the team. Because they wouldn’t have felt like this year was so much of an uphill journey. Sometimes there’s a tipping point, and you can get the benefit of the doubt or get left out. Well PSU got left out last year and although they have played hard this season, they haven’t satisfied many, and justifiably so. I think for guys like Brooks, Jones, and Battle, playing in the tournament last year would have done wonders for the team’s confidence. It would have given them the ability to test the NCAA waters and see how far they have gotten. Now it’s just a big unknown and now doubt has undoubtedly crept in to an extent.

So, there may have been people that said that winning the NIT last year could translate into this season. If PSU didn’t get an appropriate return on their investment last year, and overachieved last year, or even if PSU got what they deserved, I don’t think too many PSU fans in their heart of hearts believed that winning the NIT was going to automatically translate into another huge season. I think that’s a bit naive, and insults the collective intelligence of most PSU fans. Still, the comparison of teams in the NIT last year and their success this year is interesting indeed.[/quote]
You say PSU couldn’t “refocus” after being snubbed last season. If that is the case, then someone in charge, i.e. the coaching staff, should have taken the responsibility to “refocus” the team towards making sure that snub didn’t happen again. I look at the three other teams as taking whatever disappointment remained over missing the NCAA Tournament last season and using it as motivation for being more successful this season. Battle should have been talking NCAA Tournament this season. The team should be in the mindset of always thinking NCAA Tournament each season. That is where everyone wants this team to get to, not thinking, “Maybe, if we get lucky, we might make the NIT again?”

I have been fortunate enough to watch Baylor for at least 10-12 games this season. They are a very solid basketball team. They have some solid wins, including two wins over Texas, a team Michigan State couldn’t beat. You say the Big 12 isn’t as tough top to bottom as Big Ten. Perhaps? There certainly are some lousy teams at the bottom, like Nebraska and Colorado. But there are some equally lousy teams at the bottom of the Big Ten as well, like Indiana, Iowa, and, yes, Penn State. The Big 12 has the nation’s best team, or at least next week’s #1 team, Kansas.They also have a solid, if tournament inexperienced Kansas State team. The Big Ten has some damn solid team at the top, Purdue, Ohio State, Michigan State and even Wisconsin. After that though, the falloff is pretty large. Illinois was a mediocre 8-5 outside the Big Ten, with losses to Utah, Bradley and Georgia. Minnesota has underachieved all season, while Northwestern has limped to a weak finish. Can’t say which is better. That is an opinion I do not acre to make. Head-to-head though, I do believe the Big 12 has outperformed the Big Ten this season (Missuori beat Illinois, Iowa State beat Iowa, Kansas Beat Michigan, Texas A&M beat Minnesota, Texas beat Michigan State). I believe the only Big Ten team that beat a Big 12 team is Northwestern, who beat Iowa State.

This season has been an abysmal failure, and it lays at the feet of the coaching staff for failing to capitalize on the success from last season’s NIT win. This may not have been an NCAA Tournament team this year, but it is damn sure not a last place team either. Some people can try to explain it all away with “bad luck”, or rationalize it by claiming close losses indicate that this team was good enough to win some of those close games. I look at the season in retrospect and wonder why were so many losses close? Was it exceptional coaching that kept an under-talented team in games, or was it lousy coaching that kept a talented team from winning more games. I believe it was the latter, and not the former.

As wonderful as last season’s NIT title was, this season’s collapse has erased much of the positive aura surrounding the program, at least to many a casual fan. Penn State slipped back into their old familiar place again, last place. They also slipped back out of the minds of too many casual fans, who were left wondering when spring practice was going to start, well before the conference season was halfway over.

The one thing the small contingent of PSU fans like yourself has to hold onto is hope, and promise. After all, “wait until next year” is well ingrained and all too knowledgeable to way too many a PSU hoops supporter.


#9

True the run didn’t help but that’s easy to boast about in hindsight. If anything it proves the FF NIT run was more important than a one and done. Who’s to say a loss in the dance would’ve catapulted us into a decent team?


#10

I don’t think anybody realized how much Mel was to the team until he was gone. We all knew he was important but there is no way we go 0-12 with Mel on that team this year. For how good of a player Talor was this year he was also learning how to lead. Early on he thought that if he scored 30+ that showed he was a leader. Yesterday showed a lot about Talor. Early in the year I don’t think he would have pulled himself from the game, but I think he believed more in his guys and knew they could do it. Granted they didn’t win, but they hung with them. Talor grew a lot this season and next week we will see if they can pull off the miracle. Talor and his Cats are going to be one tough out next year.


#11

:o

Stanley still doesn’t get the respect he deserves from our fan base. Babb will need to improve A LOT to reach the level of Pringle.

Babb’s obvious strength is his 3pt shooting. For the year, he’s 67-178 (.376). Pringle’s last year he was 72-159 (.453) - I believe he led the league! And Pringle was way better at beating his man off the dribble and creating his own shot.


#12
[quote="kidcoyote, post:5, topic:925"]Next year, Babb will be better than Stan and Danny were their senior year, IMO.[/quote]

:o

Stanley still doesn’t get the respect he deserves from our fan base. Babb will need to improve A LOT to reach the level of Pringle.

Babb’s obvious strength is his 3pt shooting. For the year, he’s 67-178 (.376). Pringle’s last year he was 72-159 (.453) - I believe he led the league! And Pringle was way better at beating his man off the dribble and creating his own shot.

I agree Stanley was underrated but keep in mid Babb will just be JR next year not a SR


#13
[quote="kidcoyote, post:5, topic:925"]Next year, Babb will be better than Stan and Danny were their senior year, IMO.[/quote]

:o

Stanley still doesn’t get the respect he deserves from our fan base. Babb will need to improve A LOT to reach the level of Pringle.

Babb’s obvious strength is his 3pt shooting. For the year, he’s 67-178 (.376). Pringle’s last year he was 72-159 (.453) - I believe he led the league! And Pringle was way better at beating his man off the dribble and creating his own shot.

I agree with you Tom. Babb has time to improve but he’s not on Stanley’s level yet. Stanley basically did it all out there last year. Babb needs to learn to put the ball on the floor and get to the rim. Just like Jerardi said during the game yesterday he had a wide open fast break against MSU and didn’t know what to do with the ball when he got it. Once he gets more comfortable putting the ball on the floor look for his game to take another step forward.

#14

Sorry, some of us saw the loss of Jamelle as key. I had zero faith in the frontcourt pre-season. Like my Curry bet, I bet on Sasa, that he’d average 10ppg. As foolish as that was, I just saw nobody else on the front line getting it done. IMO, that wasn’t too far off. It’s a head scratcher saying Talor was learning to lead. Enough of this BS. This season was about the frontcourt not showing up. Look at this rebound chart. Of these players, only one, Talor Battle has more rebounds per minute this year than last. One would like to think, with Jamelle gone, the bigs would step up and replace some of his rebounds. One would be wrong. One guy improved. The rest shied away from picking up the lost rebounds. Impossible to win if something like this happens. Talor’s assists also down, but his TO’s not up. Last year, with Jamelle in the low post, he often received a skip pass, and my goodness, he actually converted. He didn’t hit the bottom of the backboard, didn’t travel from 3’ in, and didn’t miss the rim from 3’. The bigs improved late, after going 0-12. You might recall, AJ and Brooks lost their starting roles after 15 games. Want to blame that on Talor’s lack of leadership too? With Jamelle gone, the bigs had to step up and fill the void. They didn’t.

              rebounds per minute

Player last year/this year

Talor .143/.146
Jamelle .183/NA
Jones .223/.21
Brooks .192/.175
DJ .152/.149

If the 3 bigs above just rebounded at the rate they did last year, it would have resulted in 24 more rebounds in total, not a ton. But this doesn’t take into account that a major rebounder(Jamelle) isn’t there. If Evan Turner or DeShawn Sims wasn’t playing, wouldn’t you expect the other players to improve their rebounding per minute? How can you win if they don’t? Do you remember the '70’s NBA playoffs between the Sixers and the Lakers, when Jabbar sat out the 7th game? Didn’t Magic get 28 rebounds (and 42 points) in his absence? When your best rebounder is out, someone(s) has to step up. Our bigs needed to improve, not decline. Jeff’s rpm went down 8.5%, AJ’s 5.7%, DJ’s 1.8%, in more minutes per game, 78 vs. 62+, so as they played more, they did less. Talor’s went up 2.3%. If the 3 bigs rebounds went up 2.3%, it would have resulted in 34 more rebounds, maybe 32 more shots, and at the clip PSU shot, .437 overall, of which 30% were treys, another 32 points over the season. But this is only half the story, as the other team would get 32 less shots, and they’d get 32 less points. So, a 64 point swing if they just equalled Battle’s improvement, or 2.13 ppg swing. As we lost to IL, MSU and Minny by 2 points or less, might’ve helped. And just think if they really stepped up, like maybe one getting 6 rpg(like 6’4" Jamelle), and another equalling Battle’s 5.4rpg. Asking too much?


#15

Babb’s a much different player than Stanley. He won’t beat people off the bounce much, but he is developing a nice mid-range shot that he goes to, although pretty rarely. But he also brings a different defensive presence. He has matched up pretty well against big guards and small forwards. He’s made some big steals. I really like his game and look forward to his development over the next two years.

I’m optimistic for next year. This team now knows they can be a lot better than their record this year, and I hope that the sting stays with them through the summer and gives them an edge and an attitude next year. There will be a ton of competition for playing time at the 2-4 spots. We’ll have everyone back, plus we’ll be adding Buie and Marshall. We’ll have a team that has good athletes going more than 10 deep if necessary. Some people won’t get playing time, and hopefully that will be because of competition.

Next year is the year for Penn State Hoops. I’m really hopeful that it will set a new high-water mark in the history of the program.


#16
[quote="kidcoyote, post:5, topic:925"]Next year, Babb will be better than Stan and Danny were their senior year, IMO.[/quote]

:o

Stanley still doesn’t get the respect he deserves from our fan base. Babb will need to improve A LOT to reach the level of Pringle.

Babb’s obvious strength is his 3pt shooting. For the year, he’s 67-178 (.376). Pringle’s last year he was 72-159 (.453) - I believe he led the league! And Pringle was way better at beating his man off the dribble and creating his own shot.

Babb will be a junior next year. In Stan’s junior year, he shot .368 overall, and averaged 6.9ppg in 21.8mpg. He shot 36-88 from 3, for .409 clip. This year, Babb shot .374 overall, averaged 9.2ppg in 29.6mpg, and from 3, shot 67-178, for .376 clip.

I think Babb will average more than Stan did as a junior and as a senior, esp then when Battle’s gone.


#17
I don't think anybody realized how much Mel was to the team until he was gone. We all knew he was important but there is no way we go 0-12 with Mel on that team this year. For how good of a player Talor was this year he was also learning how to lead. Early on he thought that if he scored 30+ that showed he was a leader. Yesterday showed a lot about Talor. Early in the year I don't think he would have pulled himself from the game, but I think he believed more in his guys and knew they could do it. Granted they didn't win, but they hung with them. Talor grew a lot this season and next week we will see if they can pull off the miracle. Talor and his Cats are going to be one tough out next year.

Sorry, some of us saw the loss of Jamelle as key. I had zero faith in the frontcourt pre-season. Like my Curry bet, I bet on Sasa, that he’d average 10ppg. As foolish as that was, I just saw nobody else on the front line getting it done. IMO, that wasn’t too far off. It’s a head scratcher saying Talor was learning to lead. Enough of this BS. This season was about the frontcourt not showing up. Look at this rebound chart. Of these players, only one, Talor Battle has more rebounds per minute this year than last. One would like to think, with Jamelle gone, the bigs would step up and replace some of his rebounds. One would be wrong. One guy improved. The rest shied away from picking up the lost rebounds. Impossible to win if something like this happens. Talor’s assists also down, but his TO’s not up. Last year, with Jamelle in the low post, he often received a skip pass, and my goodness, he actually converted. He didn’t hit the bottom of the backboard, didn’t travel from 3’ in, and didn’t miss the rim from 3’. The bigs improved late, after going 0-12. You might recall, AJ and Brooks lost their starting roles after 15 games. Want to blame that on Talor’s lack of leadership too? With Jamelle gone, the bigs had to step up and fill the void. They didn’t.

              rebounds per minute

Player last year/this year

Talor .143/.146
Jamelle .183/NA
Jones .223/.21
Brooks .192/.175
DJ .152/.149

If the 3 bigs above just rebounded at the rate they did last year, it would have resulted in 24 more rebounds in total, not a ton. But this doesn’t take into account that a major rebounder(Jamelle) isn’t there. If Evan Turner or DeShawn Sims wasn’t playing, wouldn’t you expect the other players to improve their rebounding per minute? How can you win if they don’t? Do you remember the '70’s NBA playoffs between the Sixers and the Lakers, when Jabbar sat out the 7th game? Didn’t Magic get 28 rebounds (and 42 points) in his absence? When your best rebounder is out, someone(s) has to step up. Our bigs needed to improve, not decline. Jeff’s rpm went down 8.5%, AJ’s 5.7%, DJ’s 1.8%, in more minutes per game, 78 vs. 62+, so as they played more, they did less. Talor’s went up 2.3%. If the 3 bigs rebounds went up 2.3%, it would have resulted in 34 more rebounds, maybe 32 more shots, and at the clip PSU shot, .437 overall, of which 30% were treys, another 32 points over the season. But this is only half the story, as the other team would get 32 less shots, and they’d get 32 less points. So, a 64 point swing if they just equalled Battle’s improvement, or 2.13 ppg swing. As we lost to IL, MSU and Minny by 2 points or less, might’ve helped. And just think if they really stepped up, like maybe one getting 6 rpg(like 6’4" Jamelle), and another equalling Battle’s 5.4rpg. Asking too much?


Kid, I agree 100% about our bigs. But I think Talor grew into the star position. During the first part of the year he was playing like Iverson or Kobe after Shaq left. The last 6 games he reminded of Paul Pierce once he got KG. Actually at first I thought he might max out his scoring average but I think now that teams have to worry about Babb, DJ and Brooks as scoring threats he might get opened up a little more. I am really interested to see the team next year with Taran and Marshall and hopefully Oliver.

#18
[quote="kidcoyote, post:5, topic:925"]Next year, Babb will be better than Stan and Danny were their senior year, IMO.[/quote]

:o

Stanley still doesn’t get the respect he deserves from our fan base. Babb will need to improve A LOT to reach the level of Pringle.

Babb’s obvious strength is his 3pt shooting. For the year, he’s 67-178 (.376). Pringle’s last year he was 72-159 (.453) - I believe he led the league! And Pringle was way better at beating his man off the dribble and creating his own shot.

Babb will be a junior next year. In Stan’s junior year, he shot .368 overall, and averaged 6.9ppg in 21.8mpg. He shot 36-88 from 3, for .409 clip. This year, Babb shot .374 overall, averaged 9.2ppg in 29.6mpg, and from 3, shot 67-178, for .376 clip.

I think Babb will average more than Stan did as a junior and as a senior, esp then when Battle’s gone.

Comparing Stanley and Chris as players just can’t be done. Stanley is more of a Frazier than a Chris. Chris is more DeRon Hayes. Now if you want to compare shooting % and ppg, rpg that’s another story. I agree Chris is going to score more than Stanley but Stanley was a quick waterbug where Chris is a glider.


#19
I don't think anybody realized how much Mel was to the team until he was gone. We all knew he was important but there is no way we go 0-12 with Mel on that team this year. For how good of a player Talor was this year he was also learning how to lead. Early on he thought that if he scored 30+ that showed he was a leader. Yesterday showed a lot about Talor. Early in the year I don't think he would have pulled himself from the game, but I think he believed more in his guys and knew they could do it. Granted they didn't win, but they hung with them. Talor grew a lot this season and next week we will see if they can pull off the miracle. Talor and his Cats are going to be one tough out next year.

Sorry, some of us saw the loss of Jamelle as key. I had zero faith in the frontcourt pre-season. Like my Curry bet, I bet on Sasa, that he’d average 10ppg. As foolish as that was, I just saw nobody else on the front line getting it done. IMO, that wasn’t too far off. It’s a head scratcher saying Talor was learning to lead. Enough of this BS. This season was about the frontcourt not showing up. Look at this rebound chart. Of these players, only one, Talor Battle has more rebounds per minute this year than last. One would like to think, with Jamelle gone, the bigs would step up and replace some of his rebounds. One would be wrong. One guy improved. The rest shied away from picking up the lost rebounds. Impossible to win if something like this happens. Talor’s assists also down, but his TO’s not up. Last year, with Jamelle in the low post, he often received a skip pass, and my goodness, he actually converted. He didn’t hit the bottom of the backboard, didn’t travel from 3’ in, and didn’t miss the rim from 3’. The bigs improved late, after going 0-12. You might recall, AJ and Brooks lost their starting roles after 15 games. Want to blame that on Talor’s lack of leadership too? With Jamelle gone, the bigs had to step up and fill the void. They didn’t.

              rebounds per minute

Player last year/this year

Talor .143/.146
Jamelle .183/NA
Jones .223/.21
Brooks .192/.175
DJ .152/.149

If the 3 bigs above just rebounded at the rate they did last year, it would have resulted in 24 more rebounds in total, not a ton. But this doesn’t take into account that a major rebounder(Jamelle) isn’t there. If Evan Turner or DeShawn Sims wasn’t playing, wouldn’t you expect the other players to improve their rebounding per minute? How can you win if they don’t? Do you remember the '70’s NBA playoffs between the Sixers and the Lakers, when Jabbar sat out the 7th game? Didn’t Magic get 28 rebounds (and 42 points) in his absence? When your best rebounder is out, someone(s) has to step up. Our bigs needed to improve, not decline. Jeff’s rpm went down 8.5%, AJ’s 5.7%, DJ’s 1.8%, in more minutes per game, 78 vs. 62+, so as they played more, they did less. Talor’s went up 2.3%. If the 3 bigs rebounds went up 2.3%, it would have resulted in 34 more rebounds, maybe 32 more shots, and at the clip PSU shot, .437 overall, of which 30% were treys, another 32 points over the season. But this is only half the story, as the other team would get 32 less shots, and they’d get 32 less points. So, a 64 point swing if they just equalled Battle’s improvement, or 2.13 ppg swing. As we lost to IL, MSU and Minny by 2 points or less, might’ve helped. And just think if they really stepped up, like maybe one getting 6 rpg(like 6’4" Jamelle), and another equalling Battle’s 5.4rpg. Asking too much?

You are looking at it the wrong way. You can’t just look at the rebounding numbers, you have to look at the rebounding opportunities.

From a shot perspective:

  • last season, there were 2464 missed shots (64.8 pg). PSU grabbed 1290 reb (33.9 rpg) or 52.4% of the misses.
  • this season, there were 1958 missed shots (65.2 pg). PSU grabbed 1028 reb (34.5 rpg) or 52.5% of the misses.

We are rebounding virtually the same as last year. Jamelle’s rebounding has been replaced. It doesn’t matter who is actually doing the rebounding as long as the job is getting done - and it is. Rebounding is not our problem.

Also a fallacy with your rebounding scenario is that you assume that if our bigs stepped up and grabbed more rebounds they would be taking them away from the opponents. However, it’s just as likely that the more rebounds would come at the expense of one of their teammates.


#20
[quote="jjepsu92, post:10, topic:925"]I don't think anybody realized how much Mel was to the team until he was gone. We all knew he was important but there is no way we go 0-12 with Mel on that team this year. For how good of a player Talor was this year he was also learning how to lead. Early on he thought that if he scored 30+ that showed he was a leader. Yesterday showed a lot about Talor. Early in the year I don't think he would have pulled himself from the game, but I think he believed more in his guys and knew they could do it. Granted they didn't win, but they hung with them. Talor grew a lot this season and next week we will see if they can pull off the miracle. Talor and his Cats are going to be one tough out next year.[/quote]

Sorry, some of us saw the loss of Jamelle as key. I had zero faith in the frontcourt pre-season. Like my Curry bet, I bet on Sasa, that he’d average 10ppg. As foolish as that was, I just saw nobody else on the front line getting it done. IMO, that wasn’t too far off. It’s a head scratcher saying Talor was learning to lead. Enough of this BS. This season was about the frontcourt not showing up. Look at this rebound chart. Of these players, only one, Talor Battle has more rebounds per minute this year than last. One would like to think, with Jamelle gone, the bigs would step up and replace some of his rebounds. One would be wrong. One guy improved. The rest shied away from picking up the lost rebounds. Impossible to win if something like this happens. Talor’s assists also down, but his TO’s not up. Last year, with Jamelle in the low post, he often received a skip pass, and my goodness, he actually converted. He didn’t hit the bottom of the backboard, didn’t travel from 3’ in, and didn’t miss the rim from 3’. The bigs improved late, after going 0-12. You might recall, AJ and Brooks lost their starting roles after 15 games. Want to blame that on Talor’s lack of leadership too? With Jamelle gone, the bigs had to step up and fill the void. They didn’t.

              rebounds per minute

Player last year/this year

Talor .143/.146
Jamelle .183/NA
Jones .223/.21
Brooks .192/.175
DJ .152/.149

If the 3 bigs above just rebounded at the rate they did last year, it would have resulted in 24 more rebounds in total, not a ton. But this doesn’t take into account that a major rebounder(Jamelle) isn’t there. If Evan Turner or DeShawn Sims wasn’t playing, wouldn’t you expect the other players to improve their rebounding per minute? How can you win if they don’t? Do you remember the '70’s NBA playoffs between the Sixers and the Lakers, when Jabbar sat out the 7th game? Didn’t Magic get 28 rebounds (and 42 points) in his absence? When your best rebounder is out, someone(s) has to step up. Our bigs needed to improve, not decline. Jeff’s rpm went down 8.5%, AJ’s 5.7%, DJ’s 1.8%, in more minutes per game, 78 vs. 62+, so as they played more, they did less. Talor’s went up 2.3%. If the 3 bigs rebounds went up 2.3%, it would have resulted in 34 more rebounds, maybe 32 more shots, and at the clip PSU shot, .437 overall, of which 30% were treys, another 32 points over the season. But this is only half the story, as the other team would get 32 less shots, and they’d get 32 less points. So, a 64 point swing if they just equalled Battle’s improvement, or 2.13 ppg swing. As we lost to IL, MSU and Minny by 2 points or less, might’ve helped. And just think if they really stepped up, like maybe one getting 6 rpg(like 6’4" Jamelle), and another equalling Battle’s 5.4rpg. Asking too much?

You are looking at it the wrong way. You can’t just look at the rebounding numbers, you have to look at the rebounding opportunities.

From a shot perspective:

  • last season, there were 2464 missed shots (64.8 pg). PSU grabbed 1290 reb (33.9 rpg) or 52.4% of the misses.
  • this season, there were 1958 missed shots (65.2 pg). PSU grabbed 1028 reb (34.5 rpg) or 52.5% of the misses.

We are rebounding virtually the same as last year. Jamelle’s rebounding has been replaced. It doesn’t matter who is actually doing the rebounding as long as the job is getting done - and it is. Rebounding is not our problem.

Also a fallacy with your rebounding scenario is that you assume that if our bigs stepped up and grabbed more rebounds they would be taking them away from the opponents. However, it’s just as likely that the more rebounds would come at the expense of one of their teammates.

I think some would like to see our bigs grab more boards so we could be this “running team” that we’ve been hearing about for 7 years and counting. With Talor and others having to go inside and bang around for boards it slows everything down. It would be nice to see our bigs grab some boards and kick the outlet pass out to Talor/Tim/Chris to get the break going, not them getting tossed around and seeing 5-10 Talor have to come in there constantly and battle for boards.