Penn State 59 - Davidson 57


#1

Tough win. Need better defense but glad it was a win.

Nice to see $Bill to be playing, hoping he will be a big part of PSU future.


#2

Things could be worse. I just dropped off my tween to see New Moon and I bumped into a newly-wed colleague being dragged there by his wife.


#3

Reminds me of a conversation I had with my brother many years ago. I called him at home and the conversation went like this:

Me: "What’re you up to?"
Bro: "Watching a movie with g/f."
Me: "What are you watching?"
Bro: "The Guardian"
Me: "Really?? Kevin Costner and Whitney Houston??“
Bro” "Actually, it’s pretty good"
Me: "You’re just saying that because g/f is in the room"
Bro: “Yep.”

;D


#4

NCAAs here we come! ;D


#5

Hmm… analyzing the boxscore is a bit frustrating.

Still shooting miserably from 3, we could not shoot to save our lives in Charleston. Brooks and Jackson are giving us what we wanted out of them, as far as I’m concerned - i’d even like to see their roles both expanded more with even more touches every game.

Defense still seems questionable - if Davidson had made just one more shot in their 7-26 from 3 point land effort, it could’ve easily been a loss apparently? Perhaps our defense was better, but it looks like we gave up a super high percentage from 2 again, and lucked out on some poor shooting from Davidson on 3-balls. Maybe somebody who followed live can correct my assumption on this, but that’s how it looks in review.

Talor seems to be forcing the issue still - 4-14 shooting with no free throw attempts today… not a great tournament for him at all, really kind of disappointed with him so far this year, with the exception of the opener.

Bill Edwards first action sees him take more shots than DJ, Jonesy, and Frazier… for 8 points. Not the worst thing in the world, but it doesn’t appear he’s too shy. Babb played 19 minutes and only attempted 1 three pointer - looks like somebody told him to slow down on the chucking.

Overall - this was a terrible tournament for the program, and it’s going to take a lot of work to get this season going the way we want it to from here. This team is going to be very decent by season’s end, but things may still get worse before they get better - there’s some growing pains to finish taking right now, but I still like the makeup of this roster and hopefully Ed can get them doing the right things the right way soon.


#6

I’m not sure which of these things I find to be the scariest. The movie, the thought of my wife making me see it, or the thought of having a tween-aged daughter!


#7

[quote=“Craftsy21, post:5, topic:325”]Hmm… analyzing the boxscore is a bit frustrating.

Still shooting miserably from 3, we could not shoot to save our lives in Charleston. Brooks and Jackson are giving us what we wanted out of them, as far as I’m concerned - i’d even like to see their roles both expanded more with even more touches every game.

Defense still seems questionable - if Davidson had made just one more shot in their 7-26 from 3 point land effort, it could’ve easily been a loss apparently? Perhaps our defense was better, but it looks like we gave up a super high percentage from 2 again, and lucked out on some poor shooting from Davidson on 3-balls. Maybe somebody who followed live can correct my assumption on this, but that’s how it looks in review.

Talor seems to be forcing the issue still - 4-14 shooting with no free throw attempts today… not a great tournament for him at all, really kind of disappointed with him so far this year, with the exception of the opener.

Bill Edwards first action sees him take more shots than DJ, Jonesy, and Frazier… for 8 points. Not the worst thing in the world, but it doesn’t appear he’s too shy. Babb played 19 minutes and only attempted 1 three pointer - looks like somebody told him to slow down on the chucking.

Overall - this was a terrible tournament for the program, and it’s going to take a lot of work to get this season going the way we want it to from here. This team is going to be very decent by season’s end, but things may still get worse before they get better - there’s some growing pains to finish taking right now, but I still like the makeup of this roster and hopefully Ed can get them doing the right things the right way soon.[/quote]

The boxscore doesn’t seem right. ??? Maybe I’m wrong, but I could swear that Brooks had more than one rebound and that Battle took a couple of free throws.


#8
[quote="Craftsy21, post:5, topic:325"]Hmm.... analyzing the boxscore is a bit frustrating.

Still shooting miserably from 3, we could not shoot to save our lives in Charleston. Brooks and Jackson are giving us what we wanted out of them, as far as I’m concerned - i’d even like to see their roles both expanded more with even more touches every game.

Defense still seems questionable - if Davidson had made just one more shot in their 7-26 from 3 point land effort, it could’ve easily been a loss apparently? Perhaps our defense was better, but it looks like we gave up a super high percentage from 2 again, and lucked out on some poor shooting from Davidson on 3-balls. Maybe somebody who followed live can correct my assumption on this, but that’s how it looks in review.

Talor seems to be forcing the issue still - 4-14 shooting with no free throw attempts today… not a great tournament for him at all, really kind of disappointed with him so far this year, with the exception of the opener.

Bill Edwards first action sees him take more shots than DJ, Jonesy, and Frazier… for 8 points. Not the worst thing in the world, but it doesn’t appear he’s too shy. Babb played 19 minutes and only attempted 1 three pointer - looks like somebody told him to slow down on the chucking.

Overall - this was a terrible tournament for the program, and it’s going to take a lot of work to get this season going the way we want it to from here. This team is going to be very decent by season’s end, but things may still get worse before they get better - there’s some growing pains to finish taking right now, but I still like the makeup of this roster and hopefully Ed can get them doing the right things the right way soon.[/quote]

The boxscore doesn’t seem right. ??? Maybe I’m wrong, but I could swear that Brooks had more than one rebound and that Battle took a couple of free throws.

I think the box is right. Not sure of the FT’s, but no bigs, not Brooks, DJ or Jones had a rebound inside the 9:49 mark. And Edwards was on the bench for most if not all of it. I know this cause I was watching the play by play on gamecast. Ed shouldn’t have taken Edwards out, but maybe he was tired due to lack of play, but he was killing on rebounds. And Cohen, a 6’10" freshman had more rebounds than the 3 front line players combined. 9> 3+3+1. Seems to me that vs. teams with some taller bigs, our bigs play small and away from the basket. Can’t do this and expect to win. My karma will suffer for this, but I think the word is soft. I think Edwards will be playing a lot if today is any indication of his talent.

Amazing stat? After a mere 18 minutes of play, Bill Edwards has been to the line more than Jones. He’s 3-4 vs. Andrew’s 1-3 in 116 minutes. And Andrew is shooting, 30 shots vs. 8 for Edwards.


#9

Was psu interested in Cohen? His name seems very familiar?


#10

Yes.


#11
[quote="PSUdraw, post:9, topic:325"]Was psu interested in Cohen? His name seems very familiar?[/quote]

Yes.


Thanks Eric. He sounded like a solid player for a freshmen. He really will help davidson out over next few seasons.

#12

Wow, 3 free throws in 5 games. Does anyone think the lack of a Cornley like element on the floor has anything to do with Andrew’s woefully disappointing start to the year?


#13

I’m of the school of thought Jones is struggling so much because he is trying to do too much and think too much. Jones is not a fluid back to the basket type player and if he is constantly thinking in the back of his head what he is going to do if a play is called for him, it could be distracting. Jones was a decent rebounder last year and even that doesn’t seem to be working which doesn’t make sense.

Whatever it is, the staff better figure it out quickly because without Jones playing decent BBall on the defensive end and providing some tough inside rebounding, this team is going to have issues.


#14

We offered and I think he might have even visited.


#15

I prefer to use “toughness” or lack thereof.


#16
[quote="kidcoyote, post:8, topic:325"]Amazing stat? After a mere 18 minutes of play, Bill Edwards has been to the line more than Jones. He's 3-4 vs. Andrew's 1-3 in 116 minutes. And Andrew is shooting, 30 shots vs. 8 for Edwards.[/quote]

Wow, 3 free throws in 5 games. Does anyone think the lack of a Cornley like element on the floor has anything to do with Andrew’s woefully disappointing start to the year?

No. Well, maybe. Is that clear? :wink:

My sort of theory on this is that it’s something you learn when young, like shooting, playing with your back to the basket is a skill developed when you first start playing, like maybe 10-12 years old, or certainly on a JV team in HS, then it’s honed and developed. You don’t have to be particularly strong, though it helps as certainly height, but it’s the footwork. Guys like Jeff Ruland and Kevin McHale were great at it. McHale wasn’t strong at all. Cornley used his strength, as he didn’t have the height. I think Jones’ starting to play in the 10th grade is showing, so while he’s strong, big, tough, this is just not in his arsenal. He just has no experience doing it. Not sure anyone heard of the Mikan drill, but something like this might help, as well as tap dancing, jumping rope and hitting a speed bag. :wink: Thought I’d include a little bit about Mikan, who learned under the great Ray Meyer of DePaul. For youngsters, the NIT was it back then. There was no NCAA tourney til sometime later. Looks like Mikan forced a rule change.

Before I get to Mikan, on PSU’s team, it seems to me Sasa has the best skills and footwork necessary for a big men to play inside. He has deficiencies for sure, but with other big men in the lineup, and maybe in a zone, wouldn’t be so evident.

Early years

George Mikan was born in Joliet, Illinois to Croatian parents with roots in Vivodina near Karlovac.[4] As a boy, he shattered his knee so badly that he was kept in bed for a year and a half. In 1938, Mikan attended the Chicago Archbishop Quigley Preparatory Seminary and originally wanted to be a priest, but then moved back home to finish at Joliet Catholic.[5] Mikan did not seem destined to become an athlete. When Mikan entered Chicago’s DePaul University in 1942, he stood 6’ 10", weighed 245 pounds, moved awkwardly because of his frame, and wore thick glasses for his near-sightedness.[6]

DePaul University

[i]However, Mikan met 28-year-old rookie DePaul basketball coach Ray Meyer, who saw potential in the bright and intelligent, but also clumsy and shy freshman. Put into perspective, Meyer’s thoughts were revolutionary, because at the time it was believed that tall players were too awkward to ever play basketball well.[5] In the following months, Meyer transformed Mikan into a confident, aggressive player who took pride in his height rather than being ashamed of it. Meyer and Mikan worked out intensively, and Mikan learned how to make hook shots accurately with either hand. This routine would become later known as the Mikan Drill.[6] In addition, Meyer made Mikan punch a speed bag, take dancing lessons and jump rope to make him a complete athlete.[3]

From his first National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) college games for DePaul on, Mikan dominated his peers. He intimidated opponents with his size and strength, was unstoppable on offense with his hook shot, and soon established a reputation as one of the hardest and grittiest players in the league, often playing through injury and punishing opposing centers with hard fouls.[5] In addition, Mikan also surprised the basketball world by his unique ability of goaltending, i.e. jumping so high that he swatted the ball away before it could pass the hoop. In today’s basketball, touching the ball after it reaches its apogee is forbidden, but in Mikan’s time it was legal because people thought it was impossible anyone could reach that high. “We would set up a zone defense that had four men around the key and I guarded the basket,” Mikan later recalled his DePaul days. “When the other team took a shot, I’d just go up and tap it out.” As a consequence, the NCAA and later the NBA outlawed goaltending.[1]

Mikan was named the Helms NCAA College Player of the Year twice in 1944 and 1945 and an All-American three times, leading DePaul to the NIT title in 1945. Mikan led the nation in scoring with 23.9 points per game in 1944–45 and 23.1 in 1945–46. When DePaul won the 1945 National Invitation Tournament, Mikan was named Most Valuable Player for scoring 120 points in three games, including 53 points in a 97–53 win over Rhode Island, equalling the score of the entire Rhode Island team.[6]
[/i]


#17
[quote="kidcoyote, post:8, topic:325"]Amazing stat? After a mere 18 minutes of play, Bill Edwards has been to the line more than Jones. He's 3-4 vs. Andrew's 1-3 in 116 minutes. And Andrew is shooting, 30 shots vs. 8 for Edwards.[/quote]

Wow, 3 free throws in 5 games. Does anyone think the lack of a Cornley like element on the floor has anything to do with Andrew’s woefully disappointing start to the year?

No. Well, maybe. Is that clear? :wink:

My sort of theory on this is that it’s something you learn when young, like shooting, playing with your back to the basket is a skill developed when you first start playing, like maybe 10-12 years old, or certainly on a JV team in HS, then it’s honed and developed. You don’t have to be particularly strong, though it helps as certainly height, but it’s the footwork. Guys like Jeff Ruland and Kevin McHale were great at it. McHale wasn’t strong at all. Cornley used his strength, as he didn’t have the height. I think Jones’ starting to play in the 10th grade is showing, so while he’s strong, big, tough, this is just not in his arsenal. He just has no experience doing it. Not sure anyone heard of the Mikan drill, but something like this might help, as well as tap dancing, jumping rope and hitting a speed bag. :wink: Thought I’d include a little bit about Mikan, who learned under the great Ray Meyer of DePaul. For youngsters, the NIT was it back then. There was no NCAA tourney til sometime later. Looks like Mikan forced a rule change.

Before I get to Mikan, on PSU’s team, it seems to me Sasa has the best skills and footwork necessary for a big men to play inside. He has deficiencies for sure, but with other big men in the lineup, and maybe in a zone, wouldn’t be so evident.

Early years

George Mikan was born in Joliet, Illinois to Croatian parents with roots in Vivodina near Karlovac.[4] As a boy, he shattered his knee so badly that he was kept in bed for a year and a half. In 1938, Mikan attended the Chicago Archbishop Quigley Preparatory Seminary and originally wanted to be a priest, but then moved back home to finish at Joliet Catholic.[5] Mikan did not seem destined to become an athlete. When Mikan entered Chicago’s DePaul University in 1942, he stood 6’ 10", weighed 245 pounds, moved awkwardly because of his frame, and wore thick glasses for his near-sightedness.[6]

DePaul University

[i]However, Mikan met 28-year-old rookie DePaul basketball coach Ray Meyer, who saw potential in the bright and intelligent, but also clumsy and shy freshman. Put into perspective, Meyer’s thoughts were revolutionary, because at the time it was believed that tall players were too awkward to ever play basketball well.[5] In the following months, Meyer transformed Mikan into a confident, aggressive player who took pride in his height rather than being ashamed of it. Meyer and Mikan worked out intensively, and Mikan learned how to make hook shots accurately with either hand. This routine would become later known as the Mikan Drill.[6] In addition, Meyer made Mikan punch a speed bag, take dancing lessons and jump rope to make him a complete athlete.[3]

From his first National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) college games for DePaul on, Mikan dominated his peers. He intimidated opponents with his size and strength, was unstoppable on offense with his hook shot, and soon established a reputation as one of the hardest and grittiest players in the league, often playing through injury and punishing opposing centers with hard fouls.[5] In addition, Mikan also surprised the basketball world by his unique ability of goaltending, i.e. jumping so high that he swatted the ball away before it could pass the hoop. In today’s basketball, touching the ball after it reaches its apogee is forbidden, but in Mikan’s time it was legal because people thought it was impossible anyone could reach that high. “We would set up a zone defense that had four men around the key and I guarded the basket,” Mikan later recalled his DePaul days. “When the other team took a shot, I’d just go up and tap it out.” As a consequence, the NCAA and later the NBA outlawed goaltending.[1]

Mikan was named the Helms NCAA College Player of the Year twice in 1944 and 1945 and an All-American three times, leading DePaul to the NIT title in 1945. Mikan led the nation in scoring with 23.9 points per game in 1944–45 and 23.1 in 1945–46. When DePaul won the 1945 National Invitation Tournament, Mikan was named Most Valuable Player for scoring 120 points in three games, including 53 points in a 97–53 win over Rhode Island, equalling the score of the entire Rhode Island team.[6]
[/i]

Kid, you keep harping on Brooks needing to play with his back to the basket. I agree we need more of an inside presence but I don’t think he’s the answer. you always like to compare players and I’m going to do that too. How often did you/have you seen Kevin Durant play posted up with is back to the basket? Very infrequently to never right? Brooks and Durant have the same body type so why would you assume Brooks should be a 4 just because he’s 6’8" and can jump? I’m in no way comparing Brooks to Durant other than their body build. I’m just saying I think Brooks is more of a 3 and his strength is facing the basket and slashing to the basket. I’d say what he’s doing so far this year is working so why try to change him. Now Jones or Ott or someone else needs to be the inside force for the team, but not Brooks.


#18

I haven’t seen Durant in the pros, but in college, half his points, if not more, were in the paint. He played with his back to the basket at least half the time. I think there are similarities between them, strong ones. I do agree with you that it doesn’t have to be Brooks. I just consider him to be better than the other choices in ability. I don’t believe DJ can do it, as he doesn’t have the ups, height or reach of Jeff. I don’t feel Ott can do it, and Jones isn’t doing it. I also do not believe Jeff is a good option for shooting 3’s. If you watched the Tulane game, Jeff scored easily twice with his back to the basket, once left, once right. Don’t tell me he can’t do it, cause he’s better than anyone on the team at it. He may not like it, but he shot 6-11 that game and was 2-2 doing it that way. He also had 7 rebounds that game, his best to date.

You’re right about Jeff’s slashing to the basket being his best option, but somebody needs to play inside. As Duff mentioned at the Classic, in the last game, Jeff “reverted to the arc” in the second half. And Jeff needs to rebound. I don’t care what he does on offense, but he needs to play big consistently. Per minute of play, Battle, Babb, DJ, Jones, Ott, Sasa, Oliver and now Edwards are outrebounding him, and Frazier’s essentially tied. That certainly didn’t happen with Durant in college. He was an outstanding rebounder. In his freshman year, Durant averaged 11 rebounds per game, more than triple the rebounding of Jeff currently. And on 3’s, Durant was a significantly better shooter than Jeff, 40%(82-203) vs. 25%(4-16 and 10-39), so it could be argued, Durant was more of a 3 than Jeff. So why did he rebound?


#19
[quote="psugrad83, post:17, topic:325"]Kid, you keep harping on Brooks needing to play with his back to the basket. I agree we need more of an inside presence but I don't think he's the answer. you always like to compare players and I'm going to do that too. How often did you/have you seen Kevin Durant play posted up with is back to the basket? Very infrequently to never right? Brooks and Durant have the same body type so why would you assume Brooks should be a 4 just because he's 6'8" and can jump? I'm in no way comparing Brooks to Durant other than their body build. I'm just saying I think Brooks is more of a 3 and his strength is facing the basket and slashing to the basket. I'd say what he's doing so far this year is working so why try to change him. Now Jones or Ott or someone else needs to be the inside force for the team, but not Brooks.[/quote]

I haven’t seen Durant in the pros, but in college, half his points, if not more, were in the paint. He played with his back to the basket at least half the time. I think there are similarities between them, strong ones. I do agree with you that it doesn’t have to be Brooks. I just consider him to be better than the other choices in ability. I don’t believe DJ can do it, as he doesn’t have the ups, height or reach of Jeff. I don’t feel Ott can do it, and Jones isn’t doing it. I also do not believe Jeff is a good option for shooting 3’s. If you watched the Tulane game, Jeff scored easily twice with his back to the basket, once left, once right. Don’t tell me he can’t do it, cause he’s better than anyone on the team at it. He may not like it, but he shot 6-11 that game and was 2-2 doing it that way. He also had 7 rebounds that game, his best to date.

You’re right about Jeff’s slashing to the basket being his best option, but somebody needs to play inside. As Duff mentioned at the Classic, in the last game, Jeff “reverted to the arc” in the second half. And Jeff needs to rebound. I don’t care what he does on offense, but he needs to play big consistently. Per minute of play, Battle, Babb, DJ, Jones, Ott, Sasa, Oliver and now Edwards are outrebounding him, and Frazier’s essentially tied. That certainly didn’t happen with Durant in college. He was an outstanding rebounder. In his freshman year, Durant averaged 11 rebounds per game, more than triple the rebounding of Jeff currently. And on 3’s, Durant was a significantly better shooter than Jeff, 40%(82-203) vs. 25%(4-16 and 10-39), so it could be argued, Durant was more of a 3 than Jeff. So why did he rebound?

I agree, Brooks needs to rebound. The whole team does. I don’t care who leads the team in rebounding. If it is Battle that is fine because that means the big guys are boxing out well. I also agree Brooks shouldn’t be launching 3s. It doesn’t hurt to take a few just to keep the defender honest, but he is much more effective 15 feet and in. He may be the best the team has on the block, but I don’t think it’s his strength. I do think Jones will get better. He hasn’t shown nearly what he was doing last year at the end of the season.

We can conjecture all we want, but it’s up to Ed to put the players in position to be the most productive. Hopefully he can get it figured out.


#20

I once had a coach who made my team do 1 suicide for every defensive rebound and 2 suicides for every offensive rebound the other team got in the previous game. That type of thing might not motivate guys at this level, but needless to say, for high school age guys we were absolutely ruthless under the boards :wink: