PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Penn State (1-0, 0-0) 70, Lehigh 56

[quote=“PSUdraw, post:20, topic:1492”]Basketball IQ for Oliver is impressive when you see him. He got nice clean soft shot. He will hit lots of 3s with the guards that can penetrate and with pick and pops. He has good enough handle to play minutes at 3. He will be plus 75% free throw shooter. He totally reminds me of the old heady PSU players of Parkhill era. Only thing I want to see more is if he has a low post back to the basket game.

Minutes played tonight-- 29min, 4th on the team.[/quote]

So who are 1 and 2?

[quote="PSUdraw, post:20, topic:1492"]Basketball IQ for Oliver is impressive when you see him. He got nice clean soft shot. He will hit lots of 3s with the guards that can penetrate and with pick and pops. He has good enough handle to play minutes at 3. He will be plus 75% free throw shooter. He totally reminds me of the old heady PSU players of Parkhill era. Only thing I want to see more is if he has a low post back to the basket game.

Minutes played tonight-- 29min, 4th on the team.[/quote]

So who are 1 and 2?

The players that scored more tonight…

[quote="PSUdraw, post:20, topic:1492"]Basketball IQ for Oliver is impressive when you see him. He got nice clean soft shot. He will hit lots of 3s with the guards that can penetrate and with pick and pops. He has good enough handle to play minutes at 3. He will be plus 75% free throw shooter. He totally reminds me of the old heady PSU players of Parkhill era. Only thing I want to see more is if he has a low post back to the basket game.

Minutes played tonight-- 29min, 4th on the team.[/quote]

So who are 1 and 2?

The players that scored more tonight…

So then you’re saying you expect the scoring to look similar tonight most nights? Battle and DJ leading the way with Oliver 3rd? Who do you have 4-8 then?

Missed the game, glad one of my teams won. I saw the box, down 6 at half? I would have been nervous!

Is the game going to be re-aired on the BTN?

[quote="PSUdraw, post:2, topic:1492"]Brooks 5 blocks. He is making layup a lot harder.

Oliver is right now 3rd best player on the team.[/quote]

I’ll respectfully disagree with the second statement. He looks good, but you’re jumping the gun.


Who was the last Penn State player with a 10 pt debut?

Ans: Not Billy Oliver.

This is his sixth game in a PSU uniform. In his debut, he played five minutes, went 0-1 from the field (a three pointer), and pulled down one defensive rebound while committing two personal fouls.

The correct answer is Talor Battle, who had 12 in his debut.

Lehigh @ PSU articles:

http://www.centredaily.com/2010/11/13/2337457/psu-comes-alive-in-second-half.html

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2010/11/12/lions_beat_lehigh_in_season_opener.aspx

http://altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/544248/Second-half-sparks-PSU-men-to-victory.html?nav=5017

http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/111210aad.html

Season is long and players can get better but I think Oliver will end the season 3rd to 4th in team scoring.

I’m concerned that Ed only went with 7 guys for the most part. Are there any nagging injuries that would have limited any of the other guys’ minutes? I get that you earn minutes in practice. But does anyone know if Ed is particularly hard on them in practice? I just don’t think there is any substitute for actual game experience and the idea of entering this Big 10 with 7 usable guys is scary.

I didn’t like that either. I am pretty sure Bowman got in for maybe a 2 minute run in the 1st half. But there was a point in the 2nd half with abot 6 minutes left when PSU broke it open and was up 15+ points. You gotta pull Battle and Jackson at that point and get some young guys some run time. I would have loved to have seen an end of game rotation for Frazer/Buie/Bowman or Marshall/Oliver/Graham. That is a second unit that is going to have to get some minutes this year and it would have been nice to see them play a little together. I keep Frazier in because I think he needs as many game reps as possible right now.

Good discussion point. Yes, there is no substitute for actual game experience but how much do you lose when you play your lesser players?? This team does not have a huge margin of error. Back to “the chicken and the egg” again.

We pay Ed big bucks to decide. Hard to comment from this end when we don’t see practice.

So then you're saying you expect the scoring to look similar tonight most nights? Battle and DJ leading the way with Oliver 3rd? Who do you have 4-8 then?

Season is long and players can get better but I think Oliver will end the season 3rd to 4th in team scoring.

Agree. Oliver has beautiful stroke. He will create issues for opponents with it. Some things on the game, IMO:

Like eric mentioned, D was great. Kudos to Talor on covering CJ. He was even called by Ed to go in when CJ was going back in. Talor doesn’t often get credit for D, but he handled CJ tonight. Knutsen was almost invisible.

Brooks the new eraser? Can he be among shot block leaders in Big 10? Some of us have been harping for 3 years that he was better suited for a 5 than a perimeter player, esp on D where his length and ups could have an impact. Better late than never. On his offense, maybe getting feeds like he did from Buie will also have him figure out that this is an easier way to score than chucking up 3’s. Bye bye perimeter player. Buie brings energy. That alley oop to Jeff is the way Taran played in HS at Maginn. Crowds love that stuff. And so do players. Did you see Talor and Taran chest pounding after that play?

IMO, game changed when PSU finally went inside in second half. Other than Buie scoop feed to AJ in the paint in the 1st half, where AJ got an offensive foul, PSU did not once (I don’t think) pass the ball inside the paint from outside. In the second half, 1st two possessions went inside to Brooks, then DJ, who was fouled. This type of play wore Lehigh out. Funny how offensive rebounds occur when you’re in the paint to begin with. A big question IMO, is what will they do vs. teams with better big men? Revert to tonight’s 1st half for whole game? We saw how that works out. You absolutely have to pressure teams inside. Even if it doesn’t result in inside points, you just have to keep defenses honest. If vs. bigger, stronger inside teams, PSU bigs get intimidated and revert to the arc like last year, it’ll end up like last year. Did this game’s 1st half not bring up bad memories? Shoot lights out? 27% from the arc shows you don’t need to shoot well to win big. It’s the shot selection that matters most.

Some other concerns on offense. Two guys, Frazier and AJ, don’t know how to score. Tim is kind of timid and often passed up 18’ jumpers where he was wide open after nice penetration. Tough to become a shooter at DI. AJ can only play facing the basket, and he’s never in position to receive a pass from the arc, and has to have a penetrator pass him to the hoop and pass it out, in a kind of short kickout, or a backpass. And his 10’ jumper? Usually a clanker. I can’t believe Ed wants him taking this shot. IMO, AJ is at risk of losing minutes in favor of front line of Brooks, DJ, Oliver. Taran is going to pressure Tim for minutes.

LOL what a surprise, you have two concerns and they’re both the positions you want your two new favorite players to get more minutes at. I AM SHOCKED.

Tim had a fantastic game, we don’t need him to score - we need him to facilitate and play defense, which he did extremely well last night. He was maybe my MVP of the game for us for all the little things he did well. AJ had a tough game offensively most of the night but did not make many mistakes and was a much better defender than Oliver - which is to be expected when you look how long he’s been in the system by comparison.

As far as getting the ball inside - our very first possession of the game went right inside. Could we do it more? Yes, but it’s not like we were taking awful shots in the first half, they just weren’t dropping. There was about a 3 or 4 minute stretch where I did have some issues with our offensive strategy, but most of that was Lehigh switching defenses on us out of timeouts. We looked sharper in the 2nd half, but that’s always easy to do when your team’s shooting % goes up ~20% and the other team goes down ~20.

More on Jones…we also had 19 points off second chance opportunities and AJ had 4 offensive rebounds to go with his 9 total. Don’t underestimate what he means to this team just because he doesn’t put up a lot of points. We have 4 or 5 guys that can score pretty well now, I’m not concerned with his scoring - we need guys who can defend and rebound consistently, and I’ve been pretty happy with his progression there. Similarly with TF - it’s important to have pass-first players, and a guy who really seems intent on penetrating with the dribble this year. That’s going to help the rest of the team more than him putting up 10 shots a game.

For somebody who seems so concerned with playing inside, it’s awfully interesting to see how much you prefer BO who likes to float around outside like a european player. I think it’s a nice change of pace when he comes in, but it won’t always be such a positive if his shots don’t continue to drop from out there.

I thought Frazier played pretty crappy in the first half, honestly, considering he is suppose to be running the O. He was missing a lot of open guys down low who were screaming for the ball. We all make fun of Jones, but he couldn’t have had better position the one time he got called for 3 in the key. No idea why Tim didn’t throw the pass. Then he comes down the next possession and forces a pass into DJ, who didn’t have position, that went straight out of bounds. He missed entry passes a few times other times in the first half. I just didn’t like how he wasn’t seeing the floor.

Complete turnaround in the 2nd half, though.

This might be too obscure of a reference, but Buie really reminds me of a right handed version of Josh Pace, the former Syracuse guard.

Billy Oliver reminds me a little of Tyler Smith with not quite as much strength and a little more range.

[quote=“Craftsy21, post:32, topic:1492”] We have 4 or 5 guys that can score pretty well now[/quote] Who? Maybe against the likes of Lehigh. When we typically (last season) get into b10 play we have 1 guy we can count on to put up points. The others are usually hit or miss.I know DJ can put up points but he also has a tendancy to go MIA for parts of games/seasons.

Having a 7 man rotation is troubling. We did struggle the first half. But closed on something like a 52-29 run. Hopefully it’s just a matter of developing some continuity and then adding more pieces as we improve. We will see.

[quote="Craftsy21, post:32, topic:1492"][b] We have 4 or 5 guys that can score pretty well now[/b][/quote] Who? Maybe against the likes of Lehigh. When we typically (last season) get into b10 play we have 1 guy we can count on to put up points. The others are usually hit or miss.I know DJ can put up points but he also has a tendancy to go MIA for parts of games/seasons.

I’m not saying all of them are going to drop 20 a game like Talor… but DJ, Brooks, Oliver and Buie all have the ability to make shots in a variety of ways.

When is the last time we could say a PSU team had 5 players capable of scoring in more than one way? Will it translate against better competition? That’s kind of why they play the games, isn’t it?

[quote=“Craftsy21, post:32, topic:1492”]LOL what a surprise, you have two concerns and they’re both the positions you want your two new favorite players to get more minutes at. I AM SHOCKED.

Tim had a fantastic game, we don’t need him to score - we need him to facilitate and play defense, which he did extremely well last night. He was maybe my MVP of the game for us for all the little things he did well. AJ had a tough game offensively most of the night but did not make many mistakes and was a much better defender than Oliver - which is to be expected when you look how long he’s been in the system by comparison.

As far as getting the ball inside - our very first possession of the game went right inside. Could we do it more? Yes, but it’s not like we were taking awful shots in the first half, they just weren’t dropping. There was about a 3 or 4 minute stretch where I did have some issues with our offensive strategy, but most of that was Lehigh switching defenses on us out of timeouts. We looked sharper in the 2nd half, but that’s always easy to do when your team’s shooting % goes up ~20% and the other team goes down ~20.

More on Jones…we also had 19 points off second chance opportunities and AJ had 4 offensive rebounds to go with his 9 total. Don’t underestimate what he means to this team just because he doesn’t put up a lot of points. We have 4 or 5 guys that can score pretty well now, I’m not concerned with his scoring - we need guys who can defend and rebound consistently, and I’ve been pretty happy with his progression there. Similarly with TF - it’s important to have pass-first players, and a guy who really seems intent on penetrating with the dribble this year. That’s going to help the rest of the team more than him putting up 10 shots a game.

For somebody who seems so concerned with playing inside, it’s awfully interesting to see how much you prefer BO who likes to float around outside like a european player. I think it’s a nice change of pace when he comes in, but it won’t always be such a positive if his shots don’t continue to drop from out there.[/quote]

Shots weren’t dropping in the first half? We made two more treys in the second half. The entire difference was getting it inside. What game were you watching? AJ got offensive rebounds, yes, and that’s what happens when you get the ball inside. Offenses collapse to the hoop and you get garbage buckets. That’s the whole point. You also get much better kickout opportunities. Regarding BO, yes, I prefer bangers, but you don’t need 3 on the floor at the same time. There’s not a big who shoots even close to how he does. AJ just can’t play back to the basket. On Frazier, eric’s dead right. IMO, he overdribbles. You know how some guys get the ball and look to score first? He doesn’t. You need to be a triple threat to be more dangerous, and he really isn’t. He had 1 bucket in 28 minutes, and that was on a run to the basket where he got fed the ball for a nice layup, a little twister. He just doesn’t know how to score. Good handle, good on D, certainly quick. He cannot create his own shot. I know Joe Crispin was working with him on that fadeaway, but Joe was probably doing it since he was 11. Very hard to learn to shoot at DI level. That’s a knack developed when young. As pg, he takes the pressure off Talor, and that’s good. Just not sure it’s enough, so I either expect 3g lineup, or he gets squeezed for minutes. Buie had some rough spots, but he’s fearless, like you know who.

LOL what a surprise, you have two concerns and they're both the positions you want your two new favorite players to get more minutes at. I AM SHOCKED.

Tim had a fantastic game, we don’t need him to score - we need him to facilitate and play defense, which he did extremely well last night. He was maybe my MVP of the game for us for all the little things he did well. AJ had a tough game offensively most of the night but did not make many mistakes and was a much better defender than Oliver - which is to be expected when you look how long he’s been in the system by comparison.

As far as getting the ball inside - our very first possession of the game went right inside. Could we do it more? Yes, but it’s not like we were taking awful shots in the first half, they just weren’t dropping. There was about a 3 or 4 minute stretch where I did have some issues with our offensive strategy, but most of that was Lehigh switching defenses on us out of timeouts. We looked sharper in the 2nd half, but that’s always easy to do when your team’s shooting % goes up ~20% and the other team goes down ~20.

More on Jones…we also had 19 points off second chance opportunities and AJ had 4 offensive rebounds to go with his 9 total. Don’t underestimate what he means to this team just because he doesn’t put up a lot of points. We have 4 or 5 guys that can score pretty well now, I’m not concerned with his scoring - we need guys who can defend and rebound consistently, and I’ve been pretty happy with his progression there. Similarly with TF - it’s important to have pass-first players, and a guy who really seems intent on penetrating with the dribble this year. That’s going to help the rest of the team more than him putting up 10 shots a game.

For somebody who seems so concerned with playing inside, it’s awfully interesting to see how much you prefer BO who likes to float around outside like a european player. I think it’s a nice change of pace when he comes in, but it won’t always be such a positive if his shots don’t continue to drop from out there.

Shots weren’t dropping in the first half? We made two more treys in the second half. The entire difference was getting it inside. What game were you watching? AJ got offensive rebounds, yes, and that’s what happens when you get the ball inside. Offenses collapse to the hoop and you get garbage buckets. That’s the whole point. You also get much better kickout opportunities. Regarding BO, yes, I prefer bangers, but you don’t need 3 on the floor at the same time. There’s not a big who shoots even close to how he does. AJ just can’t play back to the basket. On Frazier, eric’s dead right. IMO, he overdribbles. You know how some guys get the ball and look to score first? He doesn’t. You need to be a triple threat to be more dangerous, and he really isn’t. He had 1 bucket in 28 minutes, and that was on a run to the basket where he got fed the ball for a nice layup, a little twister. He just doesn’t know how to score. Good handle, good on D, certainly quick. He cannot create his own shot. I know Joe Crispin was working with him on that fadeaway, but Joe was probably doing it since he was 11. Very hard to learn to shoot at DI level. That’s a knack developed when young. As pg, he takes the pressure off Talor, and that’s good. Just not sure it’s enough, so I either expect 3g lineup, or he gets squeezed for minutes. Buie had some rough spots, but he’s fearless, like you know who.

Kid - we shot 20 percent in the first half and took almost the same amount of inside vs outside shots. I saw the game, did you?

Nobody said Frazier was going to be a scorer coming here - never happened. He was recruited as a very athletic pass-first point guard and that’s what he’s becoming for us, which is precisely what we need at that position to free Talor up. Hell, it’s what you wanted out of him last year - you’re only changing your story now because you want Taran in to prove yourself right. That’s your entire MO in analyzing games - proving yourself right on all the things you ramble on about.

If Buie had Frazier’s stat line you’d be freaking out right now about how he should be starting and how wonderful he is, and how you told us so. That’s a fact.

As far as creating his own shot - he saw space and went to the rim at least 2 separate occasions while the defense was sleeping. He didn’t score on either but he blew by his defender and got to the rim the way you want a ballhandler to - the finishes will come, he’s playing with a ton of confidence and it’s clear he’s put in the work to be a true d-1 point guard.

And regarding the bigs - if you play the game your way… with 3 guards, Oliver and… who, Brooks or DJ playing the other forward… You realize how pathetically unphysical we’d be out there? We’d have 5 guys trying to play around the perimeter, which is exactly what you’re ALWAYS crying about.

Just please don’t start this already. You’re contradicting your own preachings 1 game into the season. I can’t take another 30 games of it.

[quote="Craftsy21, post:32, topic:1492"][b] We have 4 or 5 guys that can score pretty well now[/b][/quote] Who? Maybe against the likes of Lehigh. When we typically (last season) get into b10 play we have 1 guy we can count on to put up points. The others are usually hit or miss.I know DJ can put up points but he also has a tendancy to go MIA for parts of games/seasons.
You just said "we have 4 or 5 guys that can score pretty well". By year end we might but as of now we still have 1 that has proved it on the court.

I’m not saying all of them are going to drop 20 a game like Talor… but DJ, Brooks, Oliver and Buie all have the ability to make shots in a variety of ways.

When is the last time we could say a PSU team had 5 players capable of scoring in more than one way? Will it translate against better competition? That’s kind of why they play the games, isn’t it?