OT's GONE WILD!

[tjb]

The only reason why the price is $500 is because they know insurance will pay that price.

I am reluctant to engage you in your continued dodging of the essential question, but the flip side of this point is that without insurance, very few people could afford even the lower-priced health care that might/probably would result.

The price of making it available/affordable to everyone through insurance is some inflation of the costs.

[Skeeza]

Despite @skeeza's ADHD approach to this pretty simple problem, it does boil down to that.

The rest of us are required to pay for freeloaders who have life-threatening conditions
Hospitals are not allowed to refuse treatment to freeloaders
People who refuse to buy health insurance on "principle" and face life-threatening conditions they can't afford are freeloaders

tjb, you used the term "freeload" one too many times.

Here is the reality... Health insurance is a system of freeloading.

I have been healthy for my entire life. Some may say I'm lucky, but in reality, I do a lot to maintain my health. I don't smoke or use any tobacco products, I've never used drugs, I exercise vigorously, I keep my weight maintained, I eat somewhat right... ...I do my part.

I have been paying in tens of thousands of dollars, and have not see NEAR my share of benefits. tbj, in reality, I paid for part of your medical bill. Even if I went without paying for 10 years, I am still way behind in the payment/benefit ratio.

...and I am labelled a freeloader?

In reality, I'm that person that everyone is looking to for payment of their bills. It's a simple concept, guys. It's a ledger. The money going in has to match the money coming out (minus the huge medical corporation profits). In order for some to receive "benefit" from their insurance, you need others who are not receiving as much benefit. I'm that guy.

You guys need to put that "freeloader" tag on someone else. If anything, I'm the one tired of paying everyone else's tab !!!!

[tjb]

I understand all your points. I agree with some (insurance shouldn't pay for day-to-day stuff, it's a long run financial loser on average) and disagree with others (opting not to have insurance and suffering a catastrophic illness does make you a freeloader unless you can find some way of convincing medical authorities to let you die).

You have yet to answer the very simple question of what happens to you, @skeeza, when facing a catastrophic health issue when you are uninsured and do not have money.

Please answer that question before you do another trolling/bull----ting/diversion act.

[Skeeza]

You have yet to answer the very simple question of what happens to you, @skeeza, when facing a catastrophic health issue when you are uninsured and do not have money.

It seems that you have one little caveat to hang on to for this entire conversation.

It's a loaded question that you keep asking. Allow me to ask all of you the converse...

What happens after many decades, when I am responsible contributing hundreds of thousands of dollars in premiums, and I do NOT have a catastrophic event or illness? I just gave away what is easily "life changing" amounts of money.

What about THAT?

Is it fair if I ask all of you if I should get that money back? I should ask you guys the tough question.... Where did MY MONEY go?

The system is broken. It doesn't make economic sense. As you said, why does it get into day-to-day expenses? It completely inflates all charges involve.

Look, I may even be willing to pay for "catastrophic insurance", but don't want to be burdened with this entire "Amway" approach to health care.

I can't think of another business that operates this way. I do not pay huge amounts for a car insurance policy that covers oil changes, maintenance, and repairs. My car insurance does not have a "one price fits all", regardless of having a Bentley, a pinto, or a Ford Focus.

[mjg]

The only reason why the price is $500 is because they know insurance will pay that price. The only reason why insurance will pay it is because they will pass it right back to you.

You are paying that $500. Why can't you see that? Health care makes incredible profits. Health insurance makes incredible profits. Where do you think those profits come from?

Now I know you are not understanding. I don't pay $500, insurance doesn't pay $500. Because the insurance company has a negotiated rate table for every treatment, I paid $39 for that particular treatment. My insurance company would have paid that $39 if I had already met my deductible. The ONLY way the provider gets $500 is if I don't have insurance coverage. But because I have insurance, and that provider agreed to accept what my insurer allows, $39 is the price for my treatment, period.

[mjg]

What happens after many decades, when I am responsible contributing hundreds of thousands of dollars in premiums, and I do NOT have a catastrophic event or illness? I just gave away what is easily "life changing" amounts of money.

I'll answer that question when you answer our question. Would you accept treatment you can't afford and allow the rest of us to absorb that cost? Or would you refuse the treatment and die?

It's not a loaded question. It's a very important question to answer if we are going to have a two sided conversation. We all (mostly) understand your point about the high cost, and how much you could save by not paying for insurance, etc. But unless we know where you stand on the other side of this equation, what you'd do if you suffered a catastrophic illness or injury while uninsured, it's difficult for us to formulate any intelligent response.

[Skeeza]

I'll answer that question when you answer our question. Would you accept treatment you can't afford and allow the rest of us to absorb that cost? Or would you refuse the treatment and die?

It's not a loaded question. It's a very important question to answer if we are going to have a two sided conversation. We all (mostly) understand your point about the high cost, and how much you could save by not paying for insurance, etc. But unless we know where you stand on the other side of this equation, what you'd do if you suffered a catastrophic illness or injury while uninsured, it's difficult for us to formulate any intelligent response.

Why can't I simple buy "catastrophic insurance" ?

They have it for car insurance. They have it for life insurance. They have it for home insurance. Those premiums are much, much, much, much less expensive. Why do I have to buy into the whole "Amway" system to be covered for such?

I have a house, I own stock, I have a retirement fund, and I have savings. Perhaps I can pay for a catastrophic event.

Here's another question that goes back to you guys...

If I can prove that I have the wealth to pay for a catastrophic event or illness, so that I will not "freeload" on your little system, am I able to opt out?

[tjb]

I think it's clear that @skeeza won't answer the most important question because of cognitive dissonance: the answer/facts violate(s) his beliefs.

It's hard to make your brain recognize reality when everything in it doesn't want to.

[mjg]

Why can't I simple buy "catastrophic insurance" ?

You can, sort of. I have a high deductible plan through work. I pay about 1/8 of the cost of the plan with the lower deductible. I contribute to my HSA so that I have money set aside to pay in case something catastrophic comes along. My paycheck ends up being about the same net. But I end up with a pile of money that is mine to keep if I never need to spend it on health care. Eventually, that account could grow to the point that I'll stop contributing to it and have more spending money.

If I can prove that I have the wealth to pay for a catastrophic event or illness, so that I will not "freeload" on your little system, am I able to opt out?

If you give us a contract stating that you will never freeload off the system, I don't care if you have the money or not. The problem is that most people don't have the money. And those that do can simply pay the small fine with their taxes every year.

[Skeeza]

I think it's clear that @skeeza won't answer the most important question because of cognitive dissonance: the answer/facts violate(s) his beliefs.

No tjb, it's because it's a loaded question. You only see the benefit. My point is....

THE COST DOES NOT MATCH THE BENEFIT !!!!!

I would be in a tough spot if my house burned down. That's why I have homeowner's insurance. But, if my home insurance was ten grand a year, I WOULD NOT HAVE HOME INSURANCE. ...and sure as hell do not want to be REQUIRED to pay such premiums, just so others can have homeowners insurance !!!

I would say that the home insurance industry need to be addressed before I am required to pay their outrageous premiums !!!!

[mjg]

I WOULD NOT HAVE HOME INSURANCE.

If you have a mortgage, you would definitely have insurance.

[Skeeza]

You can, sort of. I have a high deductible plan through work. I pay about 1/8 of the cost of the plan with the lower deductible. I contribute to my HSA so that I have money set aside to pay in case something catastrophic comes along. My paycheck ends up being about the same net.

I have an HSA Health Insurance plan. It is still rediculous. There is still about $8,000 per year paid in premiums, but I get about $1,200 put into my HSA (those are estimates off the top of my head).

That doesn't sound like a good deal at all. That means there is only about $7000 being paid in premiums, but then again, I don't think they are paying anything towards my health care. I pay the first $2,000 or so each year out of pocket, and all I do is have 2 checkups !!!

[mjg]

I have an HSA Health Insurance plan. It is still rediculous. There is still about $8,000 per year paid in premiums, but I get about $1,200 put into my HSA (those are estimates off the top of my head).

If that's true, your company sucks at negotiating insurance costs. My wife's $300 deductible plan only costs her employer about $7,000. I know this because she has to pay 9% of the cost, which works out to about $25 per paycheck.

[MarkH]

What happens after many decades, when I am responsible contributing hundreds of thousands of dollars in premiums, and I do NOT have a catastrophic event or illness? I just gave away what is easily "life changing" amounts of money.

What happens after many decades, when I am responsible contributing hundreds of thousands of dollars in home owner insurance and my house does not burn down? I just gave away what is easily "life changing" amounts of money.

This is the basics of how insurance works. Now, there are so many "other" things in healthcare insurance that make the whole thing more expensive (and difficult to cost out);. Imagine if your homeowners insurance was twice the cost, but you got to submit claims for things like new smoke alarms, or better windows. You start to see the difficulty here. health "insurance" pays out a LOT more for things like new windows that still needs to be counted in the cost of coverage. Some of it is behavior modification (preventative care) that lowers risk, some of is stuff we just expect our health plan to cover (birth control for instance) and some of it is covering those who can't/don't pay. All that stuff makes it harder to see what you get out for what you pay in.

One of the arguments around Obamacare is the amount of stuff that the insurance is expected to cover, that really are not in the "catastrophic loss" category. Good look picking that stuff out of your coverage today (uncle sam is mostly picking that FOR you). I can put riders on my homeowners, I can including towing on my auto policy, but I have NO choice over what gets covered in my medical. About the only choice you get is the amount of the deductible... which isn't really about changing WHAT gets covered, it's about HOW MUCH.

[tjb]

No tjb, it's because it's a loaded question. You only see the benefit. My point is....

THE COST DOES NOT MATCH THE BENEFIT !!!!!

You are not being truthful or are unable to grasp a pretty simple concept.

The cost does not match the benefit on average. This is not only undeniably true, I have said and it and resaid it, and it is is plain on its face: if it were not true, there would be no insurance business.

Of course the absolutely critical point in there is ON AVERAGE. You "argue" as if being healthy is a steady state.

Now answer the question. It's really very easy, @skeeza - even you can do it!

What do you do, the one and only @skeeza, when facing a catastrophic health issue when you are uninsured for and do not have money to pay for.

[Craftsy21]

lol you're not going to get an answer out of him. he thinks the concept of insurance doesn't make sense because he can't envision a situation that exists outside of the one he's currently experiencing. this is common among many people these days.

[Skeeza]

What happens after many decades, when I am responsible contributing hundreds of thousands of dollars in home owner insurance and my house does not burn down? I just gave away what is easily "life changing" amounts of money.

...then you seriously need to get new homeowners insurance.

Did you miss the point I made about the relative COST of the insurance? I may pay a grand a year for homeowners insurance. I am paying about 10x's that in Health Insurance.

[Skeeza]

lol you're not going to get an answer out of him. he thinks the concept of insurance doesn't make sense because he can't envision a situation that exists outside of the one he's currently experiencing. this is common among many people these days.

On the contrary... I understand the concept of insurance. I know it makes sense to some, but I don't want it. What is so hard to understand about that? For the love of God, aren't we suppose to have the freedom of choice in this country ?!?!?

My wife and I are going to Europe this spring. Our Health Care does not cover us in Europe. She decided to get trip insurance, that will basically act as health insurance while we are there. I wanted nothing to do with it.

By the way... Health care costs a FRACTION in Europe as compared to this country. Why is that?

[mjg]

For the love of God, aren't we suppose to have the freedom of choice in this country ?!?!?

Yes, absolutely. Now how do the rest of us choose to not pay for your care should you suffer something catastrophic? That's the question we need answered before we can agree to accept your choice.

[UncleLar]

By the way... Health care costs a FRACTION in Europe as compared to this country. Why is that?

Maybe because much of the medical care in Europe is socialized. Heaven forbid we move to that model.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/06/nation/la-na-tt-european-healthcare-20120705