PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

OT: Phillies vs. Yankees


#1

I’m a Mets fan and anti-Yankee fan and National League fan, so I’m for the Phillies. At least it allows me to say, “we have the better league.” Anyway, my prediction:

Tonight’s game is huge. If one team wins sort of lopsided victory, they will win it. If it’s 3-2 or something like that, we learn nothing. But if it’s 6-2, with one starter knocked out, the other team has the series. Sabathia looked so awesome vs. Angels and Lee has looked so awesome as well, something has to give. Matchups I can’t wait to see.

Sabathia vs. Utley, Howard, Werth
Mariano Rivera vs. Utley

During the season I heard two things about Utley. Joe Morgan said, “when it’s all over, Chase Utley will go down as best hitting second baseman ever.” Hank Aaron said his favorite two players are Kevin Youklis and Chase Utley.

I predict some great games, with lots of dingers. IMO, Werth will come up with key hr’s. Phillies are better fielding team overall. Damon can’t throw, and Swisher is weak in right field. Phillies win all outfield positions on both offense and defense. I see the Yanks having an edge at SS, 3rd. Pretty close at 2nd(Cano hit .330) and 1st(Texeira great fielder), but I give edge to Phillies at both spots. After tonight’s starting pitching, both teams starters can be hit.

IMO, hopefully Phillies in 6. If they win tonight, 5.

Yesterday’s NY Post front page.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/66372847.html?cmpid=15585797


#2

I’m a lifelong Red Sox fan. Needless to say I am not rooting for the Yankees. I want the Phillies to beat them. If I have a hesitation it is that there will be those like yourself, who then say, that makes us (the N.L.) a better league. Excuse me?
In the past 5 years there has been 1008 inter-league games played. The A.L. has won a dominating .5734% of those games.
I will not suggest that the dominance of the A.L. in the All-Star game is very meaningful relative to the “best league”, nor should you suggest a best out of
7 W.S. would do the same.

At this point in time the better league should be evident. It is the league that has had an advantage every year for the last 5 years. in inter-league play.
Over that 5 year period it is A.L. 578 wins to 430 losses. To me, that is a significant gap.Klavier lernen
lohnvergleich

So please, lets just root for the team from the N.L to beat the Yankees and not confuse the fact that, on a whole. the A.L. has demonstrated to be the stronger league.


#3

[quote=“Duff, post:2, topic:153”]At this point in time the better league should be evident. It is the league that has had an advantage every year for the last 5 years. in inter-league play.
Over that 5 year period it is A.L. 578 wins to 430 losses. To me, that is a significant gap.

So please, lets just root for the team from the N.L to beat the Yankees and not confuse the fact that, on a whole. the A.L. has demonstrated to be the stronger league.[/quote]

While I will say the AL has absolutely been the better league, I think that tide has turned over the last couple years, and now consider them equal. I don’t think we’ll really be able to tell until about 3 years from now when we can compare interleague records, World Series winners, etc. My personal opinion, but I think the two leagues are beginning to level off.

Anyone else think home-field advantage for the World Series shouldn’t be decided by the All-Star game? Sure, it makes the game worth something, but honestly, there couldn’t be a less relevant determining factor. I say just give it to the team with the better regular season record, and if there is a tie, go to head-to-head records, if there are none or it’s a tie, go to interleague play records as leagues (NL vs AL.)


#4

I think it’s funny how things happen with Selig sometimes. I think he actually did the right thing that year in the 11th putting an end to the all-star game, but the critisism he got for it caused him to completely over-react and chase a good decision with a bad one. I think assigning home field to the winner is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen. I still think it should be on a rotating basis between the leagues, but they’ve been trying to “break down the barriers” between the leagues, so then go with the overall interleague record or something, but don’t take an exihibition game like the all star game and try to give it something that “counts”.


#5

I don’t know anything about Major League baseball. I root for the Pirates! :’(


#6

[quote=“Duff, post:2, topic:153”]I’m a lifelong Red Sox fan. Needless to say I am not rooting for the Yankees. I want the Phillies to beat them. If I have a hesitation it is that there will be those like yourself, who then say, that makes us (the N.L.) a better league. Excuse me?
In the past 5 years there has been 1008 inter-league games played. The A.L. has won a dominating .5734% of those games.
I will not suggest that the dominance of the A.L. in the All-Star game is very meaningful relative to the “best league”, nor should you suggest a best out of
7 W.S. would do the same.

At this point in time the better league should be evident. It is the league that has had an advantage every year for the last 5 years. in inter-league play.
Over that 5 year period it is A.L. 578 wins to 430 losses. To me, that is a significant gap.

So please, lets just root for the team from the N.L to beat the Yankees and not confuse the fact that, on a whole. the A.L. has demonstrated to be the stronger league.[/quote]

I should’ve expected this. For years the NL was dominant, early 60’s through 70’s. Why? The AL had no black players. Robinson came in '47, the first black Yankee was Elston Howard, in '55, prompting Casey Stengel to lament, “they finally give me one, and he can’t run.” Ever wonder why Aaron, Mays, Robinson, Clemente, McCovey, Cepeda, Marichal, Pinson et al were in the NL? The first black Red Sox? Pumpsie Green in 1959! Horrendous.

Yes, in recent years the AL has been better overall(free agency changed a lot), no doubt, but the best teams are just as often in the NL. The Marlins, Cardinals, Marlins again, Diamondbacks and Phillies have all won the Series in the last 10 years.

The AL fans and announcers often overrate the AL. The AL teams led by the Yankees and Red Sox continue to overpay, so they get better players. But often overrated. In '88, the A’s were supposed to be invincible. Hello Kirk Gibson and “I can’t believe what I just saw…”, then in 1990, once again the A’s, only to be swept 4-0 by the nasty boys on Cincy.

Chase Utley is the best player in baseball. Get over it. He rattled Sabathia the way he crowds the plate. Utley led the league in HBP the last 3 years. You just can’t pitch him inside off the plate. There’s no room. Phillies in 6, if not 5. Bye bye AL. Wait til next year. :wink:


#7

Kid,
Hadn’t considered the color angle back then… Yes, the NL was the better league back then, but I think it’s pretty clear the AL is better now, top to bottom. Sure, the NL can win a world series, but you can’t judge the whole on the top team (that’s been the B-10’s defense for years, huh?)

The old AFL enjoyed the same advantage. They were much more integrated than the NFL and took advantage of the fact the NFL’s quota system left a lot of talent out of the leage, who the AFL was more than happy to give an opportunity to. I don’t know if that was Lamar Hunt’s grand plan going in, but it worked out that way.


#8

[quote=“MarkH, post:7, topic:153”]Kid,
Hadn’t considered the color angle back then… Yes, the NL was the better league back then, but I think it’s pretty clear the AL is better now, top to bottom. Sure, the NL can win a world series, but you can’t judge the whole on the top team (that’s been the B-10’s defense for years, huh?)

The old AFL enjoyed the same advantage. They were much more integrated than the NFL and took advantage of the fact the NFL’s quota system left a lot of talent out of the leage, who the AFL was more than happy to give an opportunity to. I don’t know if that was Lamar Hunt’s grand plan going in, but it worked out that way.[/quote]

If the Phillies beat the Yankees, yet the Yankees finished 10 games ahead of the Phillies in record, what does that tell you about league strength?


#9

Actually, it tells you almost nothing. Too small a sample size. The cold weather also changes how the WS games are played. Plus all of the extra days off changes how the games are played.

The extra days off really skews the competition by shortening the starting rotation to 3 or 4 pitchers and backloading the bullpen.

To bring this over to hoops, I have the same type of problem with the NCAA tourney. There are too many time outs and they last much longer than during the regular season. This allows teams to shorten their rotations or not substitute at all.


#10

[quote=“JakkL, post:9, topic:153”]Actually, it tells you almost nothing. Too small a sample size. The cold weather also changes how the WS games are played. Plus all of the extra days off changes how the games are played.

The extra days off really skews the competition by shortening the starting rotation to 3 or 4 pitchers and backloading the bullpen.

To bring this over to hoops, I have the same type of problem with the NCAA tourney. There are too many time outs and they last much longer than during the regular season. This allows teams to shorten their rotations or not substitute at all.[/quote]

Good point re baseball. Still, need to use , some measure, e.g., the Braves won 14 division titles in a row, but only one World Series. Why? IMO, they had the best 4 starters, Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, 4th guy who changed, e.g. Steve Avery, Denny Neagle, etc. But that was necessary to win over 162 games. So, what’s important, winning over 162 games, or making the playoffs as a wild card and winning in the playoffs with 2 killer starters, like the Diamondbacks with Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling? I’ll take the latter. Uneven season, but great post season. It’s the reason the Mets should have gone hard after Roy Halliday, not Matt Holiday(at they appear to be doing). Santana and Halliday would be tough combo if they could lead team to squeak into playoffs. Phillies were very smart to get Lidge, then Lee and Pedro.

Want to hear one of baseball’s worst trades ever? Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew went to the Expos from the Indians in June of '02 for Lee Stevens, Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee. Oh, and 6 months laterExpos traded Colon in January '03 for Rocky Biddle, Orlando Hernandez, Jeff Leifer and cash. Dope that made that trade for the Expos? Omar Minaya, current Mets GM. Still a dope. The Mets have NO farm system left, what used to be top notch. And they used to trade for prospects. Now they give them away for aging stars.


#11

In the Drunkard’s Walk, Leonard Mlodinow points out that in a case where one team is so much better than the other that it woiuld be expected to win 55% of the games they played, it would take a best of 269 series to determine which team was better to gain a statistically significant result.


#12

Baseball’s schedule sickens me. Divisions with different numbers of teams. Schedules where teams play the teams in their league a different number of games. Schedules where the teams in your league play totally different teams from the other league. A division with 4 teams and others with 6. I’m no hard core traditionalist but if your going to mix things up at least keep the playing field as level as you can. In a world with a wild card how is this stuff not ridiculous?


#13

And pro football’s better? Baseball’s not perfect, but what division has 4 teams? Interleague play is kind of unbalanced, but what the heck? How many games each team play interleague? Season too long, and the steroids thing not good. Pro basketball just started, and ends June 26th. Is that incredible or what?

One thing which IMO will continue to develop, at least by smart GM’s. No longer overpay for 30 year+ stars, except maybe pitchers. It used to be like Branch Rickey said, “better to trade a player a year early than a year late”. IMO, that will happen again, sans steroids. Go young, dump high salaries. Keep your stars maybe, but don’t go free agent route. Too expensive, and many of those guys with big numbers (like Manny currently) are cheaters. It’s a young man’s game. Good GM’s will do this, IMO. And bad ones will get taken to the cleaners eating large contracts of declining stars.


#14
[quote="MarkH, post:7, topic:153"]Kid, Hadn't considered the color angle back then... Yes, the NL was the better league back then, but I think it's pretty clear the AL is better now, top to bottom. Sure, the NL can win a world series, but you can't judge the whole on the top team (that's been the B-10's defense for years, huh?)

The old AFL enjoyed the same advantage. They were much more integrated than the NFL and took advantage of the fact the NFL’s quota system left a lot of talent out of the leage, who the AFL was more than happy to give an opportunity to. I don’t know if that was Lamar Hunt’s grand plan going in, but it worked out that way.[/quote]

If the Phillies beat the Yankees, yet the Yankees finished 10 games ahead of the Phillies in record, what does that tell you about league strength?


Nothing!

I feed you over 1000 games where the AL wins .57+% of the victories. You say, “I should have expected this” then want to take a mere 7 game series to put a stake in the ground.
From 1997 through 2009 the most successful NL team won 120 interleague games. In that same time span eight out of the 14 AL teams won over 122 interleague games. That should be a WOW! Over half of the AL teams won more games than the number won by the most successful NL team. It is what it is, and a single 7 game series will have little (nor should it) on identifying the stronger leauge. That has already been accomplished by a much broader sampling of 200 plus games each and every one of the past years has ended in a AL advantage with a composite .574 to .426 advantage.


#15
[quote="MarkH, post:7, topic:153"]Kid, Hadn't considered the color angle back then... Yes, the NL was the better league back then, but I think it's pretty clear the AL is better now, top to bottom. Sure, the NL can win a world series, but you can't judge the whole on the top team (that's been the B-10's defense for years, huh?)

The old AFL enjoyed the same advantage. They were much more integrated than the NFL and took advantage of the fact the NFL’s quota system left a lot of talent out of the leage, who the AFL was more than happy to give an opportunity to. I don’t know if that was Lamar Hunt’s grand plan going in, but it worked out that way.[/quote]

If the Phillies beat the Yankees, yet the Yankees finished 10 games ahead of the Phillies in record, what does that tell you about league strength?


Nothing!

I feed you over 1000 games where the AL wins .57+% of the victories. You say, “I should have expected this” then want to take a mere 7 game series to put a stake in the ground.
From 1997 through 2009 the most successful NL team won 120 interleague games. In that same time span eight out of the 14 AL teams won over 122 interleague games. That should be a WOW! Over half of the AL teams won more games than the number won by the most successful NL team. It is what it is, and a single 7 game series will have little (nor should it) on identifying the stronger leauge. That has already been accomplished by a much broader sampling of 200 plus games each and every one of the past years has ended in a AL advantage with a composite .574 to .426 advantage.

Hmm…

Regular Season

Yankees 103-59
Phillies 93-69

10 games behind. Who has a tougher schedule? I thought the Yankees were supposed to be invincible. Winning the dominant league’s championship would sort of suggest that, no? They’re good, but are they better than the Phillies? Man for man, I’d say NFW. Big game tonight. Both teams into their so-so pitchers. Hamels had a bad season. Pettite can be hit. Outside of Rivera, Yankee bullpen suspect, and Girardi hyperactive manager, and uptight. Manuel lets the game happen. Much more relaxed, and the team shows it.


#16

AL team payrolls average $93.4 million. NL team payrolls are $83.9 million. That’s about a $10 million difference. They should have more interleague wins in the AL.


#17

Pirates spend 28 M last year. Sure hurts the league average.


#18

Good point. Pettite can be rattled. IMO, guys like Rollins and Utley can do it. 1st inning will be very interesting. As Pettite doesn’t have stuff he used to, he tries to get batters to chase on cutters and sharp breaking balls. Likes to pitch down and in to righties, down and away to lefties after backing them off the plate. IMO, Utley could be all over this. As he stands on the plate, and is willing to get hit(every 6 games) he can’t be intimidated or made to back off, which allows full plate coverage. If Sabathia couldn’t do it, Pettite won’t be able to. 1st inning will give good indication for both teams, IMO.


#19
[quote="JohnT, post:16, topic:153"]AL team [url=http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries]payrolls[/url] average $93.4 million. NL team payrolls are $83.9 million. That's about a $10 million difference. They should have more interleague wins in the AL.[/quote] Pirates spend 28 M last year. Sure hurts the league average.

Not sure where you got that number. But 4 bottom teams are NL, and the Pirates and Nationals certainly hurt interleague results. But it doesn’t matter. When the Yankees were winning all their championships and you still had the KC Athletics(which was basically a farm team for the Yanks, e.g., taking Roger Maris) and the Washington Senators, it didn’t make them worse.

When the Jets beat the Colts in '69, then the Chiefs beat the Vikings in '70, did it mean the AFL was better top to bottom? Hardly, but so what. The AFL had the best teams. And it looks like(though not over) that the Phillies have the best team. Hope Hamels doesn’t screw up tonight. He can be shaky, and flaky. Looks like he gets mad at his teammates when they make mistakes. Bad habit.

http://www.getlisty.com/preview/2009-mlb-team-payrolls/


#20
[quote="pmhewitt, post:12, topic:153"]Baseball's schedule sickens me. Divisions with different numbers of teams. Schedules where teams play the teams in their league a different number of games. Schedules where the teams in your league play totally different teams from the other league. A division with 4 teams and others with 6. I'm no hard core traditionalist but if your going to mix things up at least keep the playing field as level as you can. In a world with a wild card how is this stuff not ridiculous?[/quote]

And pro football’s better? Baseball’s not perfect, but what division has 4 teams? Interleague play is kind of unbalanced, but what the heck? How many games each team play interleague? Season too long, and the steroids thing not good. Pro basketball just started, and ends June 26th. Is that incredible or what?

One thing which IMO will continue to develop, at least by smart GM’s. No longer overpay for 30 year+ stars, except maybe pitchers. It used to be like Branch Rickey said, “better to trade a player a year early than a year late”. IMO, that will happen again, sans steroids. Go young, dump high salaries. Keep your stars maybe, but don’t go free agent route. Too expensive, and many of those guys with big numbers (like Manny currently) are cheaters. It’s a young man’s game. Good GM’s will do this, IMO. And bad ones will get taken to the cleaners eating large contracts of declining stars.

AL West kid. Seattle, Anaheim of LA or whatever the hell they are called these days, Oakland and Texas. Angels had a good team but that was a pretty sorry slate of teams they had to beat out to win the division.

And no the NFL is not perfect but it is the nature of the game. In my opinion if you are going to have a wild card then all of the teams need to be playing nearly identical schedules. They can do it. They used to do it.