OT: Knicks working out Fredette & would like to get Stephenson


#1

NFW that these guys are better than Talor. NFW. Both bigger, yes, but slower, and Stephenson shot 62% from the line and 21% from the arc. Please. Big, strong but slow guards with mediocre handles don’t make it(see Mateen Cleaves).

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_to_work_out_byu_fredette_Xc8FINrLTX28Q2rQuDmGYN


#2

On the Knicks home page. Amazing.

http://www.nba.com/knicks/features/prospectprofile2010_fredette.html


#3

Jimmer seems like he would be a very good fit for that system and Lance is a hometown boy who would create some interest.

I think Lance is more of an NBA style player and he was a terrible fit for how Cincy plays. If he has the mental makeup for it, he will be a better NBA player than he was a college player. Not sure that he will ever live up to the hype that surrounded him, though (I don’t know how he could).


#4

I like Fredette. I think he’s going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it’s amazing you say “NFW” he is better than Talor. I’m not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.


#5

[quote=“LPcreation, post:4, topic:1146”]I like Fredette. I think he’s going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it’s amazing you say “NFW” he is better than Talor. I’m not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.[/quote]

Here we go


#6
[quote="LPcreation, post:4, topic:1146"]I like Fredette. I think he's going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it's amazing you say "NFW" he is better than Talor. [b]I'm not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.[/b]

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.[/quote]

Here we go

I know…I don’t know why I can’t let these things go. :smiley:


#7

[quote=“LPcreation, post:4, topic:1146”]I like Fredette. I think he’s going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it’s amazing you say “NFW” he is better than Talor. I’m not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.[/quote]

Well, for one thing - he’s not going to have an entire defense keying on him. And Pullen is a great defender period, he’s very likely going to be a late first rounder in next year’s NBA draft. So that ain’t just some chump that was playing against him. On top of that, K-State was a very aggressive style of defense, the type you won’t see a lot in the NBA where it’s more of a pack-it-in style of man to man.

I’m not sure that one game in particular is a good measuring stick for what the NBA will be like for him. I think Jimmer is a lot like Joe Crispin, they both are deceptively quick with the ball and creative at beating their men. I’m not sure Jimmer will have anymore luck in the NBA than Joe did, but he should have a nice pro career somewhere - some guys just have a knack for scoring points in bunches, and he’s shown on a couple of occasions that he can go for 40+ in 40 minute games. Pretty impressive, no matter who you’re playing against.


#8
[quote="LPcreation, post:4, topic:1146"]I like Fredette. I think he's going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it's amazing you say "NFW" he is better than Talor. [b]I'm not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.[/b]

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.[/quote]

Here we go

I know…I don’t know why I can’t let these things go. :smiley:

Probably because you’re correct in most cases.


#9
[quote="LPcreation, post:4, topic:1146"]I like Fredette. I think he's going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it's amazing you say "NFW" he is better than Talor. I'm not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.[/quote]

Well, for one thing - he’s not going to have an entire defense keying on him. And Pullen is a great defender period, he’s very likely going to be a late first rounder in next year’s NBA draft. So that ain’t just some chump that was playing against him. On top of that, K-State was a very aggressive style of defense, the type you won’t see a lot in the NBA where it’s more of a pack-it-in style of man to man.

I’m not sure that one game in particular is a good measuring stick for what the NBA will be like for him. I think Jimmer is a lot like Joe Crispin, they both are deceptively quick with the ball and creative at beating their men. I’m not sure Jimmer will have anymore luck in the NBA than Joe did, but he should have a nice pro career somewhere - some guys just have a knack for scoring points in bunches, and he’s shown on a couple of occasions that he can go for 40+ in 40 minute games. Pretty impressive, no matter who you’re playing against.

I think that is a good comparison in what Jimmer’s game is. He could be in the league a few years if he plays a role like JJ Redick plays on the Magic but definitely don’t see him as a starter on NBA line up.

I know the season is still going on but this NBA off season is real intriguing. I don’t subscribe to LeBron leaving the Cavs but I am very curious on some other players that could be changing teams.


#10
[quote="LPcreation, post:4, topic:1146"]I like Fredette. I think he's going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it's amazing you say "NFW" he is better than Talor. [b]I'm not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.[/b]

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.[/quote]

Here we go

I know…I don’t know why I can’t let these things go. :smiley:

I just disagree. I saw them play in HS and college. Jimmer’s too slow. I guess he can be like Redick, who’s doing okay, but I think he’s slower than Redick. Even in some late games this year, like vs. Florida, where Jimmer had big points, he was getting picked easily, once with about 45 seconds left in a 1-2 point game. It was awful. I wish him well, but I don’t see it. The only way he can beat you if you stay on him is to muscle you in the paint. That’s what Cleaves did. It’s just not a pro game. For guards, it’s speed, shot, handle. Jimmer’s only got one of the 3. Talor’s got all 3. Jimmer is not deceptively quick. He’s very slow when dribbling.


#11

And Talor’s too short. :wink:

Yet somehow they both succeed. Again, I’m not making a case for either…I’m just saying it’s not like 1 is a clear cut better choice for the NBA.

Plus, I think you’re really underestimating Jimmer’s handle.


#12

Let’s end the Cleaves comparisons. He was 1/10th the shooter and scorer Jimmer is. Cleaves entire game was facillitator, leader, direct the offense, etc. Maybe the exact opposite role of Jimmer. Reddick is not nearly as rounded a player as Jimmer, even in college. I’m not saying Jimmer will be an NBA All Star, and I think he should probably head back to school. However, I see him being a good fit for the Knicks style and the comparisons being made here are kind of crazy. (PSUDraw - sorry if you are saying Jimmer could have a Reddick-like career and not comparing Jimmer’s skill set to Reddick’s)

As Craftsy stated, pressure on guards in the NBA is usually nullified by the need to defend great post play and the number of high ball screens that are set. Jimmer has the kind of skill set to have success with that style.

As far as the Jimmer vs. Joe comparisons - I like that one in terms of style of play…except Jimmer is bigger, stronger, and probably a better overall athlete.


#13
[quote="LPcreation, post:4, topic:1146"]I like Fredette. I think he's going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it's amazing you say "NFW" he is better than Talor. [b]I'm not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.[/b]

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.[/quote]

Here we go

I know…I don’t know why I can’t let these things go. :smiley:

I just disagree. I saw them play in HS and college. [B]Jimmer’s too slow.[/B] I guess he can be like Redick, who’s doing okay, but I think he’s slower than Redick. Even in some late games this year, like vs. Florida, where Jimmer had big points, he was getting picked easily, once with about 45 seconds left in a 1-2 point game. It was awful. I wish him well, but I don’t see it. The only way he can beat you if you stay on him is to muscle you in the paint. That’s what Cleaves did. It’s just not a pro game. For guards, it’s speed, shot, handle. Jimmer’s only got one of the 3. Talor’s got all 3. Jimmer is not deceptively quick. He’s very slow when dribbling.

I think you said that when he was in high school too. And if I remember correctly, you said he would be a very good D-1 player. Your favorite guy to compare too – Larry Bird – was too slow.


#14
[quote="LPcreation, post:4, topic:1146"]I like Fredette. I think he's going to be really good. He may or may not be better than Talor, but I think it's amazing you say "NFW" he is better than Talor. [b]I'm not sure Talor has done something that clearly separates himself from Jimmer.[/b]

Jimmer had some real problems against the kid from K-State on both sides of the ball. Pullens I think his name was. He’s going to see more of that in NBA so I’m curious to see how he adjusts.[/quote]

Here we go

I know…I don’t know why I can’t let these things go. :smiley:

I just disagree. I saw them play in HS and college. Jimmer’s too slow. I guess he can be like Redick, who’s doing okay, but I think he’s slower than Redick. Even in some late games this year, like vs. Florida, where Jimmer had big points, he was getting picked easily, once with about 45 seconds left in a 1-2 point game. It was awful. I wish him well, but I don’t see it. The only way he can beat you if you stay on him is to muscle you in the paint. That’s what Cleaves did. It’s just not a pro game. For guards, it’s speed, shot, handle. Jimmer’s only got one of the 3. Talor’s got all 3. Jimmer is not deceptively quick. He’s very slow when dribbling.

The only things NBA scouts look for in a guard are certainly not the only three qualities you think Talor has. Size, strength, jumping ability, passing all fit in there as well.


#15

Too many to answer, but I don’t see them as being near equal. One is a lightning quick pg, with great range and handle, the other a great shooter, average handle at best, big with good ups, but too slow for NBA pg. Maybe a 2 who gets limited minutes. Who can he cover.

LP mentioned the K State game, and this is what I see from Jimmer, which I also saw in HS. He gets picked by quicker guys. Talor doesn’t. Look at the 22 second mark in this K State game. He should’ve gotten a foul on that lunge. I’ve this before, then he lunges to get it back and hits the floor. He did it in the Florida game as well. He gets picked on his crossover. Can he fix that? He hasn’t in the 5 years I’ve seen him play.

7 BYU vs. 2 Kansas State Highlights


#16

I’m still not getting the “Born Ready” hype. I saw him in a few games, and he looked average. Definitely a top freshman, but not NBA ready… He could probably be NBA ready after his sophomore year, definitely after his junior year… Prove me wrong Lance.


#17

You can’t find one clip of him getting the ball stolen and claim that’s what he always does. He doesn’t always do that, he wouldn’t be one of the best scorers in the country if he did.

Find the clips of the Florida game where he was using that killer step-back crossover to get himself the shot. Like you, I’ll use that as my example to say I’ve seen him do that all season long and his release on that type of move is as quick as anybody still in college right now.

He’s also great at countering that type of move by doing an up-and-under move on anybody who plays too tightly on his longball.

He’s a scorer, plain and simple. I don’t think Reddick is a fair comparison, Jimmer is quicker and craftier. Mateen Cleaves? Really? That doesn’t even make sense.


#18

[quote=“Craftsy21, post:17, topic:1146”]You can’t find one clip of him getting the ball stolen and claim that’s what he always does. He doesn’t always do that, he wouldn’t be one of the best scorers in the country if he did.

Find the clips of the Florida game where he was using that killer step-back crossover to get himself the shot. Like you, I’ll use that as my example to say I’ve seen him do that all season long and his release on that type of move is as quick as anybody still in college right now.

He’s also great at countering that type of move by doing an up-and-under move on anybody who plays too tightly on his longball.

He’s a scorer, plain and simple. I don’t think Reddick is a fair comparison, Jimmer is quicker and craftier. Mateen Cleaves? Really? That doesn’t even make sense. [/quote]

I assume you’re addressing me, Craftsy. I’ve seen him get picked a bunch. I can’t find the Florida clip, as it’s not posted anywhere, but it was awful, less than 1 minute left in regulation, and the game went double OT. Saw it in HS, saw it in college. He’s a great shooter, smart, good ups, 90% FT shooter, but he’s slow. He is not deceptively quick. He does have a nice up and under move. I just don’t think his inside game is one which works in the pros.

I’m not always right on my predictions. Just usually. :wink:


#19

Jimmer and Delaney (VaTech) also pull out of draft. The story I read is running in the headlines on this site. Says Jimmer might have hurt his quad during his workout with the Knicks.


#20
[quote="Craftsy21, post:17, topic:1146"]You can't find one clip of him getting the ball stolen and claim that's what he always does. He doesn't always do that, he wouldn't be one of the best scorers in the country if he did.

Find the clips of the Florida game where he was using that killer step-back crossover to get himself the shot. Like you, I’ll use that as my example to say I’ve seen him do that all season long and his release on that type of move is as quick as anybody still in college right now.

He’s also great at countering that type of move by doing an up-and-under move on anybody who plays too tightly on his longball.

He’s a scorer, plain and simple. I don’t think Reddick is a fair comparison, Jimmer is quicker and craftier. Mateen Cleaves? Really? That doesn’t even make sense.[/quote]

I assume you’re addressing me, Craftsy. I’ve seen him get picked a bunch. I can’t find the Florida clip, as it’s not posted anywhere, but it was awful, less than 1 minute left in regulation, and the game went double OT. Saw it in HS, saw it in college. He’s a great shooter, smart, good ups, 90% FT shooter, but he’s slow. He is not deceptively quick. He does have a nice up and under move. I just don’t think his inside game is one which works in the pros.

I’m not always right on my predictions. Just usually. :wink:

I really don’t trust your eyeball judgments of anybody, and the way you misleadingly use stats doesn’t make that part of your judgments much better.

For the record - Jimmer is just slightly behind the illustrious Talor Battle in terms of turnover rate, and he’s a health number of slots higher than TB in assist rate. For as great a long bomber you make Battle out to be, Jimmer took 28 less attempts this year and made 7 more still. A full 9% higher from 3, and still managed to hit 47% from 2 despite being slow and always getting picked.

Compare 90% to 70% free throw shooting… i’m just not really sure what you’d get out of Battle that you wouldn’t get more out of with Jimmer. I guess that’s why one projects as a first rounder next year and the other isn’t even on most boards yet. But just wait til they see those timed numbers, right?