PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

@msu igt

I thought it was pretty clear that in not starting Brooks, Ed was showing that he wanted to ease him back into things. I don’t think there is any way that he wanted him to go 36 minutes last night, but the way the game was going, we couldn’t afford to play without Jeff (if we wanted to stay in it). I’ll guess that Ed’s plan was to give Jeff 20-25 minutes and not push it too far. I certainly wouldn’t have wanted him to play that much last night if it were my call, but we were lost without him.

[quote=“Craftsy21, post:266, topic:1925”]So you have no problem with the foul (which isn’t agreeing with Lar, by the way) but you don’t agree with the timing of it because you think the game was decided… Except, the game was not over, or MSU wouldn’t have been trying to score there.

Seems like some people just go out of their way to take the other guy’s side. Billy did nothing wrong - it was the right time, the right type of foul, and the right play. Get over it.[/quote]

The game WAS over. We had no chance of catching up at that point. But MSU was still playing and trying to score because we were still fouling and still pressing.

edit - BTW, if you haven’t noticed - I’m one of the few people that agrees with a lot of what you say on here lately. I also really like Billy Oliver. But I’m not going to let that blind me from saying that I think you’re wrong here and that Billy made a bad play.

I would bet that Ed was hoping he wouldn’t have had to use Jeff and to give him a few more days rest. But when you get out the gates as fast as we did (15-3) Ed needed a spark.

I am still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that a team playing for it’s postseason lives would come out with the “I don’t give a crap attitude” that they did last night. At one point starting the game I saw Tim dribble then pass to Talor, Talor with the ball up top and DJ, Andrew and Camm standing around. How do you just stand around? At that point the offense was a two man game and one of them doesn’t score.

[quote=“jjepsu92, post:271, topic:1925”]I would bet that Ed was hoping he wouldn’t have had to use Jeff and to give him a few more days rest. But when you get out the gates as fast as we did (15-3) Ed needed a spark.

I am still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that a team playing for it’s postseason lives would come out with the “I don’t give a crap attitude” that they did last night. At one point starting the game I saw Tim dribble then pass to Talor, Talor with the ball up top and DJ, Andrew and Camm standing around. How do you just stand around? At that point the offense was a two man game and one of them doesn’t score.[/quote]
Well sometimes you just aren’t good enough.

You know I could understand the Illinois loss, Jeff got hurt. The Michigan game they had won and threw it away. The MSU game was just throwing in the towel. I hope that Jeff and Talor planted their sneakers in some butts on the way home.

[quote="Craftsy21, post:266, topic:1925"]So you have no problem with the foul (which isn't agreeing with Lar, by the way) but you don't agree with the timing of it because you think the game was decided... Except, the game was not over, or MSU wouldn't have been trying to score there.

Seems like some people just go out of their way to take the other guy’s side. Billy did nothing wrong - it was the right time, the right type of foul, and the right play. Get over it.[/quote]

The game WAS over. We had no chance of catching up at that point. But MSU was still playing and trying to score because we were still fouling and still pressing.

edit - BTW, if you haven’t noticed - I’m one of the few people that agrees with a lot of what you say on here lately. I also really like Billy Oliver. But I’m not going to let that blind me from saying that I think you’re wrong here and that Billy made a bad play.

MSU was still playing and trying to score because they wanted to achieve some stupid, made-up statistical achievement for one of their players at the expense of sportsmanship and class.

But even if this weren’t their motive and they actually were just trying to finish out the game, there was nothing wrong with fouling a guy in that situation if you’re Billy Oliver. If he doesn’t hurt himself on the play you don’t for a second question the foul, but because of a high-speed, awkward collision and poor landing it now becomes a bad foul? Nope, doesn’t work that way.

It was a clean foul in a spot that makes sense and it’s unfortunate he landed the way he did. End of story here.

[quote="Craftsy21, post:266, topic:1925"]So you have no problem with the foul (which isn't agreeing with Lar, by the way) but you don't agree with the timing of it because you think the game was decided... Except, the game was not over, or MSU wouldn't have been trying to score there.

Seems like some people just go out of their way to take the other guy’s side. Billy did nothing wrong - it was the right time, the right type of foul, and the right play. Get over it.[/quote]

The game WAS over. We had no chance of catching up at that point. But MSU was still playing and trying to score because we were still fouling and still pressing.

edit - BTW, if you haven’t noticed - I’m one of the few people that agrees with a lot of what you say on here lately. I also really like Billy Oliver. But I’m not going to let that blind me from saying that I think you’re wrong here and that Billy made a bad play.

MSU was still playing and trying to score because they wanted to achieve some stupid, made-up statistical achievement for one of their players at the expense of sportsmanship and class.

But even if this weren’t their motive and they actually were just trying to finish out the game, there was nothing wrong with fouling a guy in that situation if you’re Billy Oliver. If he doesn’t hurt himself on the play you don’t for a second question the foul, but because of a high-speed, awkward collision and poor landing it now becomes a bad foul? Nope, doesn’t work that way.

It was a clean foul in a spot that makes sense and it’s unfortunate he landed the way he did. End of story here.

No it’s not end of story. It was a bad foul and unnecessarily at any point in any game. He was beat. Getting beat does not give you a license to commit an intentional, potentially dangerous, foul - but Oliver did. I don’t care when in the game it happened, nor what goal MSU had it mind, it was wrong.

[quote=“jjepsu92, post:271, topic:1925”]I would bet that Ed was hoping he wouldn’t have had to use Jeff and to give him a few more days rest. But when you get out the gates as fast as we did (15-3) Ed needed a spark.

I am still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that a team playing for it’s postseason lives would come out with the “I don’t give a crap attitude” that they did last night. At one point starting the game I saw Tim dribble then pass to Talor, Talor with the ball up top and DJ, Andrew and Camm standing around. How do you just stand around? At that point the offense was a two man game and one of them doesn’t score.[/quote]

Several things bothered me about the game, and you touched on one, standing around. I’d add:

what was Ed’s plan for AJ in the offense? By my count, AJ received the ball 4 times at the arc, 2 times inside the arc. I’d like Ed to finish this sentence, “I like AJ to receive the ball at the arc because…” I don’t get it. He doesn’t shoot from there, doesn’t dribble from there. He looks right, left, shifts his shoulders both ways, wastes 3 to 5 seconds, then passes. What’s the point?

Talor and Tim are two of the fastest players in the league, yet when they drive, help arrives. So, our bigs are not underneath for passes, but close enough to the hoop and closing in on it(I suppose for putback or rebound opportunity) that their man leaves them to stop the two guards driving. How about having AJ high enough, not 10’ from the basket, a terrible spot, maybe at the elbow, and have DJ and Jeff in opposite corners. This would allow space and time for the guards to drive. And if a racing closer comes in, leaving the corner, kick to the corner, but stay in the damn corner. The bigs should set up inside(never) or get the hell out of the way to allow drivers the space to score. Notice how help kept arriving for Tim and Talor last night? Tim has trouble shooting, but he can beat his man off the dribble, but to what end? To have to shoot over Green? Why is Green even there? Who’s he covering? Offenses are supposed to spread the defense, not help it by having improper spacing. You want to play inside/outside, not in between. That favors defenses as it makes it easier to help.

[quote="Craftsy21, post:266, topic:1925"]So you have no problem with the foul (which isn't agreeing with Lar, by the way) but you don't agree with the timing of it because you think the game was decided... Except, the game was not over, or MSU wouldn't have been trying to score there.

Seems like some people just go out of their way to take the other guy’s side. Billy did nothing wrong - it was the right time, the right type of foul, and the right play. Get over it.[/quote]

The game WAS over. We had no chance of catching up at that point. But MSU was still playing and trying to score because we were still fouling and still pressing.

edit - BTW, if you haven’t noticed - I’m one of the few people that agrees with a lot of what you say on here lately. I also really like Billy Oliver. But I’m not going to let that blind me from saying that I think you’re wrong here and that Billy made a bad play.

MSU was still playing and trying to score because they wanted to achieve some stupid, made-up statistical achievement for one of their players at the expense of sportsmanship and class.

But even if this weren’t their motive and they actually were just trying to finish out the game, there was nothing wrong with fouling a guy in that situation if you’re Billy Oliver. If he doesn’t hurt himself on the play you don’t for a second question the foul, but because of a high-speed, awkward collision and poor landing it now becomes a bad foul? Nope, doesn’t work that way.

It was a clean foul in a spot that makes sense and it’s unfortunate he landed the way he did. End of story here.

No it’s not end of story. It was a bad foul and unnecessarily at any point in any game. He was beat. Getting beat does not give you a license to commit an intentional, potentially dangerous, foul - but Oliver did. I don’t care when in the game it happened, nor what goal MSU had it mind, it was wrong.

Getting beaten is the perfect time TO foul, Lar. It’s the main reason any fouls are committed, if you were always in position you wouldn’t be fouling now would you?

It was a good foul. Whether it was necessary or not is completely dependent on your point of view (two schools of thought here it seems: either you’re a normal fan who says no easy buckets, ever… or you’re somebody like yourself who would rather be a contrarian on EVERYTHING than just pretend to be a fan once in awhile).

Let’s be honest, you don’t really care about this play at all. You aren’t bothered that Billy Oliver fouled this kid. You’re just more interested in taking the other side of the issue and acting as though you’re somehow above the average fan.

I am interested in being fair and objective. You are not. I believe that you can both be a fan and be objective. Evidently, you do not. I try to take the side of the issue that I believe is right regardless of whether I am a fan of one side or the other. Clearly, you do not.

[quote="Craftsy21, post:277, topic:1925"]Let's be honest, you don't really care about this play at all. You aren't bothered that Billy Oliver fouled this kid. You're just more interested in taking the other side of the issue and acting as though you're somehow above the average fan.[/quote]

I am interested in being fair and objective. You are not. I believe that you can both be a fan and be objective. Evidently, you do not. I try to take the side of the issue that I believe is right regardless of whether I am a fan of one side or the other. Clearly, you do not

Good for you, climb right back up on that high horse of yours. Except not every topic is an objective one, despite your best efforts to prove otherwise, and as I’ve pointed out this is one of those cases.

So what you will almost inevitably do in a situation like this is fade whatever the popular opinion on it currently is. There was not one person on here shocked to see you come running in the defense of Izzo and Sparty, and that has nothing to do with objectiveness and/or fairness - you just like being that guy. We all know people just like you in real life and you’re all convinced your just being objective.

Keep fighting the good fight if it makes you feel better, but be careful you aren’t being blinded by your own (attempted) self-righteousness.

[quote="Craftsy21, post:277, topic:1925"]Let's be honest, you don't really care about this play at all. You aren't bothered that Billy Oliver fouled this kid. You're just more interested in taking the other side of the issue and acting as though you're somehow above the average fan.[/quote]

I am interested in being fair and objective. You are not. I believe that you can both be a fan and be objective. Evidently, you do not. I try to take the side of the issue that I believe is right regardless of whether I am a fan of one side or the other. Clearly, you do not

Good for you, climb right back up on that high horse of yours. Except not every topic is an objective one, despite your best efforts to prove otherwise, and as I’ve pointed out this is one of those cases.

So what you will almost inevitably do in a situation like this is fade whatever the popular opinion on it currently is. There was not one person on here shocked to see you come running in the defense of Izzo and Sparty, and that has nothing to do with objectiveness and/or fairness - you just like being that guy. We all know people just like you in real life and you’re all convinced your just being objective.

Keep fighting the good fight if it makes you feel better, but be careful you aren’t being blinded by your own (attempted) self-righteousness.

Please tell me what kind of goggles I have to put on that makes this a play on the ball?

And would they be the same ones that make this shove on the backside not a dangerous play?

Oliver had no chance at making a play on the ball and that little push on the backside is what caused the injury. I’m just hope it’s not a serious one for the kid.

NOTE: The good news is that the Chicago Trib reports no structural damage and that Roe will be day-to-day. I hope he doesn’t miss a game.

You basically described a lot of the concepts of Dribble-Drive Motion, made famous by Calipari at Memphis and now UK. I thought about this a while back, and I don’t think stuff like this would be a bad idea at all for PSU’s starting 5 at least. They do have 2 very good, quick drivers, and it would put Jones in an inside position where he is mostly repsonsible for catching/finishing and rebounding.

I think AJ catches it outside sometimes because he can get the ball distributed without any ball pressure, and his defender will let him catch it out there any time he wants. This is not uncommon practice with bigs who are not a threat out there.

Lar I absolutely agree with you on this one Oliver was in no position to make that foul without that result and should have never done that. I am guessing those who think it was a good foul have either never played basketball (organized) or have never was in that situation where you were being fouled by someone putting in dangerous position. I have been both been fouled in this manner lucky me no injury but I had a teammate in HS get fouled like this and came down and broke arm in couple of different places. I understand the foul as is we were being embarrassed but was that Michigan States fault or more ours. I have no problem with Oliver’s foul i have the problem with the nature of the foul, in fact i think Talor’s foul on the following inbound play was very cheap and unnecessary.

Please tell me what kind of goggles I have to put on that makes this a play on the ball?

If I said somewhere that he was playing the ball, I didn’t mean to. I simply said it was a good foul. The two aren’t mutually exclusive in all cases.

Your screencaps just show what I already remember about the play - he grabbed his off-arm, which is a good, safe place to foul somebody and not malicious at all. The hand on the back looks to me, and looked in real time also, as though Billy was trying to hold him up so he didn’t fall down the way he did anyways. Did not see it as anything resembling a “shove”, the arm never even extends in your caps - in fact, it looks like he almost tries to catch him rather than push him… but I guess you’ll see what you want to there. Clearly Billy was trying to injure him ::slight_smile:

Billy is one step behind him and reaches at his arms - there is nothing wrong with that. It’s unfortunate about the landing and I hope the kid is fine as well, but BO did nothing wrong there and your pictures prove that.

You would be guessing wrong. There’s a difference between pulling at a guys backside while he’s in the air or undercutting his legs and grabbing at his arms as he’s taking off. This was the latter, and there was nothing wrong with it except he didn’t keep him from scoring.

I don’t have a problem with Talor’s foul. I thought he was going for the ball, lost his balance, and grabbed the Michigan player just trying to regain it. I didn’t think he was actually trying to foul him.

If I said somewhere that he was playing the ball, I didn’t mean to. I simply said it was a good foul. The two aren’t mutually exclusive in all cases.

Your screencaps just show what I already remember about the play - he grabbed his off-arm, which is a good, safe place to foul somebody and not malicious at all. The hand on the back looks to me, and looked in real time also, as though Billy was trying to hold him up so he didn’t fall down the way he did anyways. Did not see it as anything resembling a “shove”, the arm never even extends in your caps - in fact, it looks like he almost tries to catch him rather than push him… but I guess you’ll see what you want to there. Clearly Billy was trying to injure him ::slight_smile:

Billy is one step behind him and reaches at his arms - there is nothing wrong with that. It’s unfortunate about the landing and I hope the kid is fine as well, but BO did nothing wrong there and your pictures prove that.[/quote]

My assumption when you said it was a good foul was that you meant that it was a foul within the spirit of playing the game. Whacking the guy like Oliver did, i.e. not playing the ball, is an intentional personal foul (and was correctly called so). When you intentionally foul someone, you are giving them free throws AND the ball. I rarely see how that can be considered “a good foul”.

Please tell me what kind of goggles I have to put on that makes this a play on the ball?

If I said somewhere that he was playing the ball, I didn’t mean to. I simply said it was a good foul. The two aren’t mutually exclusive in all cases.

Your screencaps just show what I already remember about the play - he grabbed his off-arm, which is a good, safe place to foul somebody and not malicious at all. The hand on the back looks to me, and looked in real time also, as though Billy was trying to hold him up so he didn’t fall down the way he did anyways. Did not see it as anything resembling a “shove”, the arm never even extends in your caps - in fact, it looks like he almost tries to catch him rather than push him… but I guess you’ll see what you want to there. Clearly Billy was trying to injure him ::slight_smile:

Billy is one step behind him and reaches at his arms - there is nothing wrong with that. It’s unfortunate about the landing and I hope the kid is fine as well, but BO did nothing wrong there and your pictures prove that.

My assumption when you said it was a good foul was that you meant that it was a foul within the spirit of playing the game. Whacking the guy like Oliver did, i.e. not playing the ball, is an intentional personal foul (and was correctly called so). When you intentionally foul someone, you are giving them free throws AND the ball. I rarely see how that can be considered “a good foul”.

They didn’t get the call correct, that’s the entire argument here - don’t use circular logic to swing the thing in your favor. Obviously I don’t agree with the intentional foul call, don’t go citing the fact that it was called intentional to rationalize it being a “bad foul” given. It was clear the refs didn’t like the call because of how ugly he landed, but that’s incorrect officiating in the first place - you don’t judge an intentional foul based on whether or not somebody gets hurt, but rather, whether there was intent - and there’s a lot of wiggle room here also, since you see guys intentionally fouling at the end of nearly every game and it never gets called that way even though everybody knows what’s going on.

This should be factored in to the way you officiate this call on BO.

And you’re also just playing dumb now - as if you’ve never heard of stopping a guy with a clear path to the bucket being a “good foul”… making him earn the points from the line… no easy buckets. As if none of these things has ever been taught before by every coach from jr. high to the pros.

You’re going to cry that he didn’t execute the foul in the exact best way preferred for you in a full speed race to the hoop? Fine. ::slight_smile: But don’t play stupid. That’s a situation and a type of foul given by most players in that situation, and most coaches would approve of it.

Since people are talking about Talor’s foul at the end of the game I can tell you that Ed did not want him to foul at that point and Talor was playing hard and accidentally fouled him. At the end of the game while shaking hands you could see Ed tell Izzo that he told him not to foul and Izzo said it’s no big deal.