PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Just asking if you know the facts


#1

Not trying to make this negative but with all the anticipation that I personally had for this game (my bad) and going forward this season I got to say the magnitude of this loss was disheartening.
Probably this is something that you can not look up. Nevertheless, I will state, my belief, that this is the first time since the 3 shot clock was initiated that a team with four starting seniors failed to score 40 points on their home floor.
Please, someone show me otherwise.
No, it won’t make me feel any better but, I will be a little relieved that we didn’t just set a new low, in respect to putting your best effort on a 4 year plan toward better basketball results.


#2

Yeah this individual performance was bad, but I don’t know why everyone was expecting huge returns compared to last season. This team arguably lost pieces of an 11 win team. Factor in junior->senior class improvements, and the KenPom 16 win~ prediction is fair.

I guess those “at least were not getting blown out like we used to” arguments fly out the window and are replaced with “the team was tired” and “Brooks and Jackson were on the bench half the game” excuses.

Come back down the earth people. :frowning:


#3

I said to MillionaireMagic at the end of the game that that was the single worst basketball performance that I have ever witnessed under ED. 14-68… we out-shot them by 21 baskets, and lost by 23 points. No matter what way you split it, that is absolutely dreadful. Seriously, those numbers do not make sense… pitiful.


#4

[quote=“noobd, post:2, topic:1585”]Yeah this individual performance was bad, but I don’t know why everyone was expecting huge returns compared to last season. This team arguably lost pieces of an 11 win team. Factor in junior->senior class improvements, and the KenPom 16 win~ prediction is fair.

I guess those “at least were not getting blown out like we used to” arguments fly out the window and are replaced with “the team was tired” and “Brooks and Jackson were on the bench half the game” excuses.

Come back down the earth people. :([/quote]

Who was off the planet is my question? Don’t confuse optimism and hopefulness early in the season for a lack of realistic expectations. I haven’t seen anybody acting like we were some very special team this year, just a lot of people hoping we could miraculously put together a post-season worthy effort this year. Nothing wrong with that at all.

If anything, people are overreacting to this one game tonight more than anything. You call it an excuse to say we just shot poorly? Do you have any idea how bad 20 percent shooting is over the course of an entire game? I’m trying to find a good way to even express it… consider that the worst offensive team in the country last year, again the best team they faced last season… still managed to shoot 34% from the field against them. That’s kind of a random number to throw out, but the point is that even a really awful team against a really good one will typically shoot far better than we did tonight. This was not a case of defense just overwhelming us, it was one of the most horrific shooting efforts I have ever seen in a basketball game.

Here’s something… remember the awful Penn State v Illinois game a few years back that didn’t get out of the 30’s? We shot a whopping 28 percent from the field that night, while Illinois shot 30 percent… and that’s considered one of the worst offensive basketball games of all time. Consider that the shooting from both teams was almost 50% better than what PSU shot tonight and you should begin to have SOME idea of just how bad it was this evening.

Now I’m not saying that means we give them a free pass. They came out and laid an egg, no doubt about it. But let’s be careful of just throwing the whole season out based on a night that was as bad as I’ve ever seen a team shoot at this level. Open shots too, most of them. Nobody is making an excuse by saying that - there is no excuse for shooting that poorly or laying an egg in a spot that meaningful. But if we even shoot just 30 percent (which is still awful, remember) tonight we’re in that game until the final seconds… so I mean, just be careful criticizing too much based on tonight.

We certainly have some issues that tonight showed… specifically a lack of depth up front and an offense that is based primarily on dribbling from 25 feet away from the basket. These aren’t new though, we all knew they were the hurdles we had to overcome this season. Let’s see what happens the next week, with how these guys respond to tonight before anyone jumps ship entirely. This was a freakishly bad night.

edit: just googled again. The lowest scoring game in NCAA history since the 3-point line was added took place 5 years ago http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap/_/id/253480163/boxscore?gameId=253480163

Princeton shot 22% that night. So… yeah, this was bad tonight.


#5

Craftsy,

I’m just speaking generally. I know its a discussion forum, but there has been a lot of talk about “what has to be done to reach the Dance” and stuff like that. I suppose I could have confused optimism and hopefulness, but I still think a lot of people have overrated this team. A lot of people seem really confused and angry about this loss rather than just disappointment. I’m disappointed the team loss, but I’m not going to go on rants about the offense, ED, etc because all that is nothing new at all. Meh… its a forum I suppose I’m being too light skinned!

I’m not going to respond to your tangent about shooting percentages. I skimmed it, and it seems valid, but I’m just not responding to it – no offense or anything. Just don’t want you to think I completely ignored what you wrote. :slight_smile:


#6

And I thought the way the game started was great. Leading 7-0 the home crowd was rocking. It seemed like at least we would show a good effort. And we just couldn’t shoot. Maryland couldn’t shoot for a while too, but we really couldn’t shoot.

Maybe we needed a game like this to remind ourselves that we have to concentrate. Believe it or not, besides shooting poorly, i thought we did a lot of the little things right. Battle and the entire team had swagger in the first 5 minutes of the game. Battle had that fast break to Brooks for the highlight reel dunk! We looked however temporarily, the better more ready team than Maryland. And yeah then we couldn’t shoot anything, and the first half was much like PSU @ Illinois in '08-09. But when Brooks had that dunk, it looked like we were on our way. Then Brooks got into foul trouble. It hurt our swagger. Brooks is a large part of the offense. He is an incredible player but Maryland is good at drawing fouls. Brooks going to the bench completely stopped our offense.

I think this team will learn from this game. I liked Frazier. He even had a nice shot near the ark that rattled in. Oliver had a great game, hustling for loose balls and hitting 3’s. It was ugly in the 2nd half, but it started pretty good. Buie is young and got caught in mid air when a Maryland player pump faked from the 3 point line, and led to a Maryland basket. Buie can’t fall for that. Battle actually looked good in this game. Yeah it was bad offensively, not justifying it. But there is hope with this team. Watch the first 5 minutes of the game and you know the team is good enough to compete with teams like this. The team has a long way to go, and really this is what the non conference season is for. Yeah PSU lost to Maryland, but it also played Maryland, a good team. PSU will also play @ Va Tech, a team that Purdue had to go to OT to beat. That will be another stern test for PSU, and it needs to find it’s shooting stroke in the next non conference game.

Losing this game isn’t the end of the world. The BigTen won the BigTen / ACC challenge. PSU will get a second chance against an ACC team.

It was still a game at the half, but we just couldn’t shoot. It got ugly in the second half, but this is what happens when you play good teams early in the season.

It was bad shooting. The numbers make perfect sense if you watch the game. In the opening minutes we played like a team. Once Brooks got 2 fouls, the game changed. We lost our swagger and couldn’t score.

It was just one of those games. No one should be pleased by it, but we did have some good looks even in the 2nd half and some good ball movement. too many shoots rattled in-and-out. it was a strange experience, but i was impressed with various things. Bright spots : Battle, Oliver, Frazier?


#7

And just to be specific, what i mean by things we did well besides shooting poorly is like i was really impressed with our offensive rebounding in the first half. Our boxing out was fabulous. The shots just didn’t fall. Lets not get carried away. The team are human beings. In our last game against a good team we scored an good amount of points. This loss does not disqualify us from tournament consideration. I think we can find our shooting touch. And no, we don’t have to adjust the rims at the BJC. We can adjust to them. Maryland had a tough time with scoring, too. They adjusted. We can adjust. The road ahead is what will determine our fate. If we ultra sensationalize this, it will only hurt morale. 8)


#8

Yeah, thank you for the tickets. We were both very down after leaving the game. How about you make it up to me by having your team poop the bed against me in Fantasy this week? I need this one to clinch the division.


#9

The thing that disspointed me the most last night was how we reacted to the poor shooting. Teams that have confidence and have a plan keep “chopping wood” at the thing. The 2nd half looked like the Talor Battle dribble-off.

Listening to the game on the radio, Dickie J said 2 things that made sense to me, and neither one was done.

  1. Drive to the hoop. When you can’t score, get more agressive to the rim and at least try to draw some fouls. Seemed like even Battle was stopping short of the rim and pulling up 10 footers.
  2. With about 10 to go, after Jeff picked up foul #4, he suggested going small… put battle, Taran and frazier on the floor at the same time and see if you can get a mis-match somewhere. Heck we needed to try SOMETHING but it seemed like the coaching response to the drought was to do more of the same… have talor dribble around the arc for 30 seconds and then try to drive into the paint.

(BTW… I’m not pointing a finger at Battle. I think he lost confidence in the guys around him last night and I can’t say I can blame him for that)


#10

[quote=“MarkH, post:9, topic:1585”]The thing that disspointed me the most last night was how we reacted to the poor shooting. Teams that have confidence and have a plan keep “chopping wood” at the thing. The 2nd half looked like the Talor Battle dribble-off.

Listening to the game on the radio, Dickie J said 2 things that made sense to me, and neither one was done.

  1. Drive to the hoop. When you can’t score, get more agressive to the rim and at least try to draw some fouls. Seemed like even Battle was stopping short of the rim and pulling up 10 footers.
  2. With about 10 to go, after Jeff picked up foul #4, he suggested going small… put battle, Taran and frazier on the floor at the same time and see if you can get a mis-match somewhere. Heck we needed to try SOMETHING but it seemed like the coaching response to the drought was to do more of the same… have talor dribble around the arc for 30 seconds and then try to drive into the paint.

(BTW… I’m not pointing a finger at Battle. I think he lost confidence in the guys around him last night and I can’t say I can blame him for that)[/quote]

Point a finger at Battle? He was the only one not playing like a mouse in a cage with a cobra. My goodness, talk about lack of toughness. We played this game like Lehigh and Fairfield play us. Maryland too tough for our guys inside? Go to the arc and launch 3’s! Didn’t it look like Maryland spent more time in the weightroom than our team? The strategy for every team going forward vs. us should be to go inside. We’re soft. On another matter, not that I’d pin blame on any single person, it was a group effort, but can somebody explain to me the role on offense of Andrew Jones? Is it standing around and waiting for the ball to hit him in the head? He is never in good position for a pass. He sets high screens and walks around without any clear purpose.

I guess last night proved we’re not the slowest team regarding taking shots on offense. That worthless stat has to have improved.


#11
[quote="State4Life, post:3, topic:1585"]I said to MillionaireMagic at the end of the game that that was the single worst basketball performance that I have ever witnessed under ED.[/quote]

And I thought the way the game started was great. Leading 7-0 the home crowd was rocking. It seemed like at least we would show a good effort. And we just couldn’t shoot. Maryland couldn’t shoot for a while too, but we really couldn’t shoot.

Maybe we needed a game like this to remind ourselves that we have to concentrate. Believe it or not, besides shooting poorly, i thought we did a lot of the little things right. Battle and the entire team had swagger in the first 5 minutes of the game. Battle had that fast break to Brooks for the highlight reel dunk! We looked however temporarily, the better more ready team than Maryland. And yeah then we couldn’t shoot anything, and the first half was much like PSU @ Illinois in '08-09. But when Brooks had that dunk, it looked like we were on our way. Then Brooks got into foul trouble. It hurt our swagger. Brooks is a large part of the offense. He is an incredible player but Maryland is good at drawing fouls. Brooks going to the bench completely stopped our offense.

I think this team will learn from this game. I liked Frazier. He even had a nice shot near the ark that rattled in. Oliver had a great game, hustling for loose balls and hitting 3’s. It was ugly in the 2nd half, but it started pretty good. Buie is young and got caught in mid air when a Maryland player pump faked from the 3 point line, and led to a Maryland basket. Buie can’t fall for that. Battle actually looked good in this game. Yeah it was bad offensively, not justifying it. But there is hope with this team. Watch the first 5 minutes of the game and you know the team is good enough to compete with teams like this. The team has a long way to go, and really this is what the non conference season is for. Yeah PSU lost to Maryland, but it also played Maryland, a good team. PSU will also play @ Va Tech, a team that Purdue had to go to OT to beat. That will be another stern test for PSU, and it needs to find it’s shooting stroke in the next non conference game.

Losing this game isn’t the end of the world. The BigTen won the BigTen / ACC challenge. PSU will get a second chance against an ACC team.

It was still a game at the half, but we just couldn’t shoot. It got ugly in the second half, but this is what happens when you play good teams early in the season.

It was bad shooting. The numbers make perfect sense if you watch the game. In the opening minutes we played like a team. Once Brooks got 2 fouls, the game changed. We lost our swagger and couldn’t score.

It was just one of those games. No one should be pleased by it, but we did have some good looks even in the 2nd half and some good ball movement. too many shoots rattled in-and-out. it was a strange experience, but i was impressed with various things. Bright spots : Battle, Oliver, Frazier?

Given the title of the thread, I thought it should be noted that Oliver was 1/5 on threes with no rebounds and one turnover. I do have pretty high hopes for him, but those are the facts.


#12

Noobd:

You should go over to my post from a few days ago entitled “Brace yourself”, where I tried to warn everyone about the “tourney talk” and the "bubble talk, noting that these expectations were totally unwarranted for this year’s team.

The response was pretty much unified against me, lead by some of the same posters commenting here. You’ll see that there was considerable anger that I would present an opinion that was not in line with the consensus.

If you look at the recent history, a team almost has to win 10 games (10-8) in the Big Ten to be selected at-large to the NCAA, regardless of their out of conference performance. I just don’t see how anyone who understands basketball thought, or can continue to think, that this will be achieved this season.

I’ll “brace myself” for the angry response to this comment.


#13

Re: ball movement:

The ball movement seemed ok in the first half, but was pretty horrible at times in the second half. I wouldn’t point out the ball movement as something that we did a good job with. Last night, a 3 point game felt like a 5 possession game.


#14

[quote=“LarryJoe, post:12, topic:1585”]Noobd:

You should go over to my post from a few days ago entitled “Brace yourself”, where I tried to warn everyone about the “tourney talk” and the "bubble talk, noting that these expectations were totally unwarranted for this year’s team.

The response was pretty much unified against me, lead by some of the same posters commenting here. You’ll see that there was considerable anger that I would present an opinion that was not in line with the consensus.

If you look at the recent history, a team almost has to win 10 games (10-8) in the Big Ten to be selected at-large to the NCAA, regardless of their out of conference performance. I just don’t see how anyone who understands basketball thought, or can continue to think, that this will be achieved this season.

I’ll “brace myself” for the angry response to this comment.[/quote]

What bugs me is people making FALSE statements like they are facts. Since the conference went to 18 games, EVERY team that had exactly nine wins went to the NCAAs.

2010: Minn 9-9
2009: Minn 9-9
2009: Mich 9-9

What is correct is that SOME teams that were 10-8 did not go.

2010: Ill 10-8
2009: PSU 10-8
2008: OSU 10-8

So getting to 10 wins obviously doesn’t assure that you get a bid. Equally obviously it’s possible to get one with 9 wins. That makes your statement patently false.

You go dancing at 9-9 by having a strong enough non conference schedule and record to support getting a bid. PSU booked a good enough schedule to satisfy the first. To satisfy the second, they need to go 9-2 out of conference. Since we now have our two losses, we’ll have to win out to get to 9-2.


#15
[quote="State4Life, post:3, topic:1585"]I said to MillionaireMagic at the end of the game that that was the single worst basketball performance that I have ever witnessed under ED. 14-68... we out-shot them by 21 baskets, and lost by 23 points. No matter what way you split it, that is absolutely dreadful. Seriously, those numbers do not make sense... pitiful.[/quote]

Yeah, thank you for the tickets. We were both very down after leaving the game. How about you make it up to me by having your team poop the bed against me in Fantasy this week? I need this one to clinch the division.


I’ll talk to them for ya, but Peyton Hillis seems to have Jamelle Cornley’s blue-collar work ethic. I’m not sure if he’ll let-up.

#16

[quote=“LarryJoe, post:12, topic:1585”]Noobd:

You should go over to my post from a few days ago entitled “Brace yourself”, where I tried to warn everyone about the “tourney talk” and the "bubble talk, noting that these expectations were totally unwarranted for this year’s team.

The response was pretty much unified against me, lead by some of the same posters commenting here. You’ll see that there was considerable anger that I would present an opinion that was not in line with the consensus.

If you look at the recent history, a team almost has to win 10 games (10-8) in the Big Ten to be selected at-large to the NCAA, regardless of their out of conference performance. I just don’t see how anyone who understands basketball thought, or can continue to think, that this will be achieved this season.

I’ll “brace myself” for the angry response to this comment.[/quote]

According to PSUChamp08, the team did a lot of little things well, came out on fire (even though they shot around 5-20 to start), and played well for 5 minutes.

PSUChamp, playing well for five minutes – even though I wouldn’t even consider it playing well – does not constitute a good team. I know you have a habit of finding positives in any thing, even EMBARRASSING 23 point losses at home to un-ranked teams. You should work for the government or FOXNews or something – SPIN SPIN SPIN.

You mention missed shots as the reason why this team lost. As Bobby Knight said during the Purdue/VT game: “if you blame a loss on just missing shots, you probably were taking bad shots… if you lost the game because the other team just shot the lights out, you probably played bad defense” – hmmm… Maryland and Ole Miss games come to mind here.

Sure this game isn’t the end of the world, but it lifted the rug up to reveal the flaws that had been swept under the carpet by wins against lesser opponents.


#17
Noobd:

You should go over to my post from a few days ago entitled “Brace yourself”, where I tried to warn everyone about the “tourney talk” and the "bubble talk, noting that these expectations were totally unwarranted for this year’s team.

The response was pretty much unified against me, lead by some of the same posters commenting here. You’ll see that there was considerable anger that I would present an opinion that was not in line with the consensus.

If you look at the recent history, a team almost has to win 10 games (10-8) in the Big Ten to be selected at-large to the NCAA, regardless of their out of conference performance. I just don’t see how anyone who understands basketball thought, or can continue to think, that this will be achieved this season.

I’ll “brace myself” for the angry response to this comment.

According to PSUChamp08, the team did a lot of little things well, came out on fire (even though they shot around 5-20 to start), and played well for 5 minutes.

PSUChamp, playing well for five minutes – even though I wouldn’t even consider it playing well – does not constitute a good team. I know you have a habit of finding positives in any thing, even EMBARRASSING 23 point losses at home to un-ranked teams. You should work for the government or FOXNews or something – SPIN SPIN SPIN.

Nope. No spin here. Spinning it would be leaving out important facts to the story or making it seem like it was something it wasn’t. I admitted it was extremely poor shooting. I didn’t dance around that fact. I shouldn’t work for the government or FoxNews. And in an effort to stay politically neutral, MS-NBC is just as biased and spins just as much as FoxNews, if not more.

The 2nd half was embarrassing. But it wasn’t embarrassing when it was a 3 point game early and battle hit a 3. The fact that he couldn’t hit the backside of a barn is what was embarrassing. But you gotta separate bad shooting for being a bad team. Sometimes teams go through shooting funks, some times it just happens. i’m not saying we should excuse it. my recommendation would be to learn from what happened and try to make it better. it doesn’t disqualify us from the tournament. if we beat Va Tech we should be in good shape going into conference season as Lar as said. If we come up short at Va Tech but play tough, that’s 3 losses to good teams in a non conference season that’s perceived to be stronger than the 08-09 campaign.

I’ve said before that the non conference is taken way too seriously in college basketball. it’s not meaningless, but it’s more of a time for your team to come together and learn from what happens, so it can prepare you for the conference season. This game was a wake up call, and how the team studies this game and learns from it will determine future success.

You mention missed shots as the reason why this team lost. As Bobby Knight said during the Purdue/VT game: "if you blame a loss on just missing shots, you probably were taking bad shots... if you lost the game because the other team just shot the lights out, you probably played bad defense" -- hmmm... Maryland and Ole Miss games come to mind here.

Sure this game isn’t the end of the world, but it lifted the rug up to reveal the flaws that had been swept under the carpet by wins against lesser opponents.

I don’t agree 100% with Bobby Knight’s comment. I’m not blaming the loss on anything. The team that makes more shots wins. So it’s an obvious fact related to the game of basketball that if you miss shots, you usually lose. yes it has something to do with the other team, but let me ask you this? Do you think Maryland was light years ahead of us in game planning and talent? Sure they were better than us on this given day, but did they really present a challenge that we haven’t seen before in the BigTen? I thought it was pretty telling how we came out of the gate and went up 7-0. Yeah it was short lived, but i think you gotta take something from that. It shows that we were playing well. I even loved the passion that battle had when he shouted at Brooks to dunk on the fast break.

It lifted the rug up further to show our flaws, but our flaws have been pointed out on our boards even before this game. It was a disappointing loss, but it’s just one game, and in college basketball, one game doesn’t determine whether or not you make the tournament.


#18

Wonder if a Bob Knight team ever shot 20% on over 60 shots in a single game.


#19

They’ve come close (at least at Texas Tech - can’t find box scores for his Indiana years).

How about 26%? 16 for 61 in a 68-44 loss to Kansas St.

or 28.8%? 17-59 in a 81-46 loss to Syracuse in a ESPN televised game at the Garden

or 29.0%? 18-62 in a 109-51 loss to Kansas.

Those bad shooting nights even happen to good teams and great coaches.


#20
[quote="Craftsy21, post:18, topic:1585"]Wonder if a Bob Knight team ever shot 20% on over 60 shots in a single game.[/quote]

They’ve come close (at least at Texas Tech - can’t find box scores for his Indiana years).

How about 26%? 16 for 61 in a 68-44 loss to Kansas St.

or 28.8%? 17-59 in a 81-46 loss to Syracuse in a ESPN televised game at the Garden

or 29.0%? 18-62 in a 109-51 loss to Kansas.

Those bad shooting nights even happen to good teams and great coaches.

I figured he came close a few times. But still, imagine his worst number from those three… was still 6 percentage points better than what we did last night. They would have beat us last night with that bad of a number. I’m interested to see if kenpom picks up on that game last night as a statistical oddity and does any research into it - I think it was bad enough to warrant some serious inspection from him.