PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Jan Jagla ranked #39 among non US players


#1

at the FIBA World Championships according to Slam Online.


#2

Jagla is a very skilled player. I remember the Minnesota game where he was draining threes the year PSU started 2-0 in the BigTen and beat Ohio St a few days later.

As far as the FIBA Championships, I’ve been watching some games today. Canada is playing Lebanon now. One point of note is that this FIBA Championship is the end of an era. Huge NBA-influenced rule changes are coming to the FIBA Championships in October:

FIBA is working to make its rules much more similar to the NBA rules. The bulk of those changes won’t go into effect until October 1st, immediately after these world championships. Key changes include extending the three point line from 6.25 m to 6.75 m (22 ft), a rectangular restricted area instead of the current trapezoid from the free throw line, and a no-charge semi circle. All of this is not in effect yet for this tournament.

So they are going from a trapezoid restricted area with no no-charge zone to a rectangular lane with a no-charge zone. They are also extending the 3 point line. It’s like college basketball 2009 all over again.

Long gone are the days where the NBA, college basketball, and international basketball had differences. This is truly an end of an era. This likely will be the last major basketball tournament where the refs are free to call charges anywhere on the court. And the last tournament with unique international rules.

Enjoy it while you can. 8)


#3

Watching the USA-Croatia game right now. I am always trying to put international basketball in terms of international soccer these days, because I think it’s the closest comparison to soccer’s awesome international setup.

So in trying to figure out who we equate to in soccer in terms of our past dominance in the sport, I always come up with Brazil. I say that as both a compliment and a bit of an insult.

I’m still amazed at how little fundamentals many of our guys have… the lack of team basketball almost all of them come into these tournaments with. We are so much more talented and athletic than most of these teams, we can simply rely on fast breaks and blocked shots to overcome all our faults… and that’s enough to blow 90 percent of the world out still, who just can’t stop us defensively and don’t have the firepower to keep up offensively.

But it’s kind of disappointing to me to watch us play most of the time, realizing how much better we could still be if the team had a better sense of certain things… like on the ball pressure, boxing out and outlet passing off rebounds, the desire to pass and move offensively rather than dribble and watch, and an understanding that they could get two points everytime down the court and don’t have to settle for 3’s against almost ANY opponent they face.

I realize this is our B or C team I’m watching today, although it’s still very talented. But even thinking back to the last 10 years of international hoops and especially the last olympics with the renewed focus on it… there’s no way Spain should be able to compete with us and they were extremely close to beating our BEST squad just two summers ago because of those things I talked about.

Those are the things that take very little talent, I guess that’s what bugs me. There’s no shame in being the Brazil of basketball, but oftentimes while watching USA basketball I just feel like it’s disappointing to not see how good these teams could ACTUALLY be if they had a little bit more discipline and fundamentals to their game.


#4

In the 50s and 60s the rest of the world trained their coaches on basketball fundamentals by watching US college/NBA video footage!
I am a little ashamed what they would see now. How about taking 3 steps on a lay-up…or catching the ball…taking a step…THEN establishing a pivot foot. USA hoopers have gotten away from fundamentals in part because refs DO NOT call violations when they occur. Why refs do not call violations??..Well that is another whole discussion.
While, on one hand, the world “copied” USA basketball. There were some important non USA innovations. The Russians in the early 70’s rose in promenence playing “inside - out” basketball. This was laughed at and mocked in many circles. At the time it looked very “FUNNY.” USA hoops were always “outside - in.” That US team attacked the basket by both dribble and pass. The Russian “inside - out” threw the ball inside MOSTLY for the purpose of kicking/passing the ball back out.
Watch NBA hoop now and you will see an Russian “inside - out” game.


#5

[quote=“tundra, post:4, topic:1319”]In the 50s and 60s the rest of the world trained their coaches on basketball fundamentals by watching US college/NBA video footage!
I am a little ashamed what they would see now. How about taking 3 steps on a lay-up…or catching the ball…taking a step…THEN establishing a pivot foot. USA hoopers have gotten away from fundamentals in part because refs DO NOT call violations when they occur. Why refs do not call violations??..Well that is another whole discussion.[/quote]

It’s another discussion, but it’s related to basketball, the FIFA championships, and frankly it’s going to affect Jan Jagla. Moving back the 3 point line could help Jagla as he is a good distance 3 point shooter. However, Jan is a good defensive player and has been able to out think his opponents in the post.

As far as US college / NBA footage, over time, the game has changed. Mostly, the game has improved. Recently, the game has been butchered. This is no secret or conspiracy. These new NBA rules have taken over not just america, but the world. and frankly, european and international basketball is a more pure game than the NBA. There was zone defense before the NBA had it. it never had gimmics like no charge zones.

It’s not just in basketball. There are a lot of firsts in the world of sports these days. In the winter Olympics, amateurs used to compete in hockey, now pros compete. In the winter olympics this year, for the first time ever, olympic hockey was competed on an NHL-sized rink instead of an international sized rink. Yeah, not many seemed to even notice but to me that was very telling.

The David Stern NBA rules with modified zone defense with no charge zone lines has no become the “standard”, when 15 years ago no one ever heard of such a thing and if you predicted something like this would occur, people would think you were crazy back then. Now it’s normal and crazy is a world without no charge zones where you can play defense set your position and refs actually were allowed to evaluate the situation and make a ruling.

No, pretty soon continuation will be added to college basketball, and Ohio State will be allowed to trample over Penn State 1-3-1 zones and Ohio State will get two shots every time. The tipping point was Penn State not being allowed to compete for the national championship in 2009. They were deemed not worthy due to their non conference strength of schedule. Yeah, in today’s basketball, it’s not really about how you finish in your conference standings anyway, it’s about who you played in your non conference and how you finished in a conference tournament. Yup, that’s what “matters” these days. You know, the things that don’t matter. Because after all, it’s well intentioned, so we can’t question it. It’s better now. Because ESPN’s celebrity sports news creator says so.

[quote=“tundra, post:4, topic:1319”]While, on one hand, the world “copied” USA basketball. There were some important non USA innovations. The Russians in the early 70’s rose in promenence playing “inside - out” basketball. This was laughed at and mocked in many circles. At the time it looked very “FUNNY.” USA hoops were always “outside - in.” That US team attacked the basket by both dribble and pass. The Russian “inside - out” threw the ball inside MOSTLY for the purpose of kicking/passing the ball back out.
Watch NBA hoop now and you will see an Russian “inside - out” game. [/quote]

Yeah the world copied good things from US back in the day, then the US copied good things from europe when they tried zone defense. The problem is that they had to screw it up and they didn’t just allow zone defense. they had to make sure scoring didn’t go down too much, which basically means lets give teams automatic free throws for driving the line.

I’ll be watching these FIBA championships as a reminder of the way things “were”. This is a major international tournament where a charge can be called at any time by the referee. he can not be overruled because a defender stepped on a no charge zone.


#6

This France Spain match is very exciting. Spain outscored France 19-8 in the first quarter, and France outscored Spain 18-10 in the 2nd quarter. Very exciting!


#7
[quote="tundra, post:4, topic:1319"]In the 50s and 60s the rest of the world trained their coaches on basketball fundamentals by watching US college/NBA video footage! I am a little ashamed what they would see now. How about taking 3 steps on a lay-up..............or catching the ball.......taking a step...........THEN establishing a pivot foot. USA hoopers have gotten away from fundamentals in part because refs DO NOT call violations when they occur. Why refs do not call violations??............Well that is another whole discussion.[/quote]

It’s another discussion, but it’s related to basketball, the FIFA championships, and frankly it’s going to affect Jan Jagla. Moving back the 3 point line could help Jagla as he is a good distance 3 point shooter. However, Jan is a good defensive player and has been able to out think his opponents in the post.

As far as US college / NBA footage, over time, the game has changed. Mostly, the game has improved. Recently, the game has been butchered. This is no secret or conspiracy. These new NBA rules have taken over not just america, but the world. and frankly, european and international basketball is a more pure game than the NBA. There was zone defense before the NBA had it. it never had gimmics like no charge zones.

It’s not just in basketball. There are a lot of firsts in the world of sports these days. In the winter Olympics, amateurs used to compete in hockey, now pros compete. In the winter olympics this year, for the first time ever, olympic hockey was competed on an NHL-sized rink instead of an international sized rink. Yeah, not many seemed to even notice but to me that was very telling.

The David Stern NBA rules with modified zone defense with no charge zone lines has no become the “standard”, when 15 years ago no one ever heard of such a thing and if you predicted something like this would occur, people would think you were crazy back then. Now it’s normal and crazy is a world without no charge zones where you can play defense set your position and refs actually were allowed to evaluate the situation and make a ruling.

No, pretty soon continuation will be added to college basketball, and Ohio State will be allowed to trample over Penn State 1-3-1 zones and Ohio State will get two shots every time. The tipping point was Penn State not being allowed to compete for the national championship in 2009. They were deemed not worthy due to their non conference strength of schedule. Yeah, in today’s basketball, it’s not really about how you finish in your conference standings anyway, it’s about who you played in your non conference and how you finished in a conference tournament. Yup, that’s what “matters” these days. You know, the things that don’t matter. Because after all, it’s well intentioned, so we can’t question it. It’s better now. Because ESPN’s celebrity sports news creator says so.

“The tipping point”? LMAO.

Seriously, you have to be the only person in the country that thinks that.


#8

[quote=“UncleLar, post:7, topic:1319”]“The tipping point”? LMAO.

Seriously, you have to be the only person in the country that thinks that.[/quote]

Well there are always various tipping points, you just gotta identify them. But you may be right. The real tipping point probably was Penn State 38, Illinois 33. Yeah remember that led to articles like this :

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/126642-37-33-what-the-hell-was-that

Ohh My!!! Ottzilla is dominating games!!! Ohh my!!! No one on Illinois can score on Ottzilla. Something must be done about the way in which Penn State won!! The following season, the NCAA made rules to prohibited Penn St, or any other team for that matter, from winning through team defense. Team, help defense was subsequently outlawed and the automatic and-1 based on ACC no defense basketball has begun. Is that about right Lar?


#9

Getting back to the “why refs don’t call fouls” discussion…I am reminded of a discussion I had with a ~itt hoop insider (~itt has lots of insiders who coaches share info with - for a price) anyway. This ~itter was bashing BigTen hoops. Calling it an "Old Man’s low scoring league which calls TOO MANY fouls and violations. He compared the Big LEAST which he felt cantered to fans by NOT calling fouls or violations…thus a faster and more entertaining higher scoring game.


#10
[quote="UncleLar, post:7, topic:1319"]"The tipping point"? LMAO.

Seriously, you have to be the only person in the country that thinks that.[/quote]

Well there are always various tipping points, you just gotta identify them. But you may be right. The real tipping point probably was Penn State 38, Illinois 33. Yeah remember that led to articles like this :

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/126642-37-33-what-the-hell-was-that

Ohh My!!! Ottzilla is dominating games!!! Ohh my!!! No one on Illinois can score on Ottzilla. Something must be done about the way in which Penn State won!! The following season, the NCAA made rules to prohibited Penn St, or any other team for that matter, from winning through team defense. Team, help defense was subsequently outlawed and the automatic and-1 based on ACC no defense basketball has begun. Is that about right Lar?

Dream on.


#11
[quote="UncleLar, post:7, topic:1319"]"The tipping point"? LMAO.

Seriously, you have to be the only person in the country that thinks that.[/quote]

Well there are always various tipping points, you just gotta identify them. But you may be right. The real tipping point probably was Penn State 38, Illinois 33. Yeah remember that led to articles like this :

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/126642-37-33-what-the-hell-was-that

Ohh My!!! Ottzilla is dominating games!!! Ohh my!!! No one on Illinois can score on Ottzilla. Something must be done about the way in which Penn State won!! The following season, the NCAA made rules to prohibited Penn St, or any other team for that matter, from winning through team defense. Team, help defense was subsequently outlawed and the automatic and-1 based on ACC no defense basketball has begun. Is that about right Lar?

Dream on.

It’s the reality of what happened. I’m okay with it, but we can’t lie about it. It’s the end of an era.


#12

Another case of someone spouting their mouth off without bothering to actually know (or look up) the facts.

Big East schools shoot more free throws than Big Ten schools. Even using tempo based data, they shoot more (specifically, the measure is free throws attempts per shot attempt).


#13

It’s all about image…baby. (so is Dickie V., by the way)
I don’t know what the “foul stats” are in the Big Ten or the Big Least. But, I see/hear many people (even media) talk about the BigTen as slower… As being a coaches league… or a strategy league. I see many talk about the Big Least as being more “athletic” and faster. I don’t know. I don’t watch much Big Least hoops. Maybe it’s just media crapulla. People I talk to in Western Pa perceive the Big Least as “cool” and the Big Ten as “a dinosaur.” Maybe it’s just the ~itt prejudice…I don’t know if this is a national perception or not.


#14

[quote=“tundra, post:13, topic:1319”]It’s all about image…baby. (so is Dickie V., by the way)
I don’t know what the “foul stats” are in the Big Ten or the Big Least. But, I see/hear many people (even media) talk about the BigTen as slower… As being a coaches league… or a strategy league. I see many talk about the Big Least as being more “athletic” and faster. I don’t know. I don’t watch much Big Least hoops. Maybe it’s just media crapulla. People I talk to in Western Pa perceive the Big Least as “cool” and the Big Ten as “a dinosaur.” Maybe it’s just the ~itt prejudice…I don’t know if this is a national perception or not.[/quote]

Well now you are switching horses.

The Big Ten does play at a slower pace that the Big East. That’s true. But that’s not the point that you said your Pitt friend was making. His argument supposedly was that Big Ten refs call more fouls, and thus slow the league down. That’s false.


#15

The Big East might get more possessions, but they go about it in a pretty similar way. The average efficiency numbers from last year for each conference, offense on top and defense on the bottom.

111.25 big east
95

109.6 big ten
94.2

The median numbers for the whole country on both is 101.1 offense and 101.2 defense.

The ACC interestingly enough has a similar 110 offensive number, but a 91 defensive… I know I don’t typically think of the ACC as a defensive-minded conference compared to the Big Ten or Big East.

Big 12 has a 112.5 offensive number, 93.12 defensive, which seems very entertaining to me… the best offense and the best defense in the same conference? Hell yes!

Actually I don’t know what these numbers really mean in general or relation to this conversation… i just started flipping through them to see if the Big East being more entertaining made any sense… it doesn’t. It isn’t. lol


#16

[quote=“tundra, post:13, topic:1319”]It’s all about image…baby. (so is Dickie V., by the way)
I don’t know what the “foul stats” are in the Big Ten or the Big Least. But, I see/hear many people (even media) talk about the BigTen as slower… As being a coaches league… or a strategy league. I see many talk about the Big Least as being more “athletic” and faster. I don’t know. I don’t watch much Big Least hoops. Maybe it’s just media crapulla. People I talk to in Western Pa perceive the Big Least as “cool” and the Big Ten as “a dinosaur.” Maybe it’s just the ~itt prejudice…I don’t know if this is a national perception or not.[/quote]

…that’s because of the “Southern Speed”, …no wait, I meant “Eastern Speed”, …I mean, oh nevermind, it’s a different arguement ! :wink:


#17
[quote="tundra, post:4, topic:1319"]In the 50s and 60s the rest of the world trained their coaches on basketball fundamentals by watching US college/NBA video footage! I am a little ashamed what they would see now. How about taking 3 steps on a lay-up..............or catching the ball.......taking a step...........THEN establishing a pivot foot. USA hoopers have gotten away from fundamentals in part because refs DO NOT call violations when they occur. Why refs do not call violations??............Well that is another whole discussion.[/quote]

It’s another discussion, but it’s related to basketball, the FIFA championships, and frankly it’s going to affect Jan Jagla. Moving back the 3 point line could help Jagla as he is a good distance 3 point shooter. However, Jan is a good defensive player and has been able to out think his opponents in the post.

As far as US college / NBA footage, over time, the game has changed. Mostly, the game has improved. Recently, the game has been butchered. This is no secret or conspiracy. These new NBA rules have taken over not just america, but the world. and frankly, european and international basketball is a more pure game than the NBA. There was zone defense before the NBA had it. it never had gimmics like no charge zones.

It’s not just in basketball. There are a lot of firsts in the world of sports these days. In the winter Olympics, amateurs used to compete in hockey, now pros compete. In the winter olympics this year, for the first time ever, olympic hockey was competed on an NHL-sized rink instead of an international sized rink. Yeah, not many seemed to even notice but to me that was very telling.

The David Stern NBA rules with modified zone defense with no charge zone lines has no become the “standard”, when 15 years ago no one ever heard of such a thing and if you predicted something like this would occur, people would think you were crazy back then. Now it’s normal and crazy is a world without no charge zones where you can play defense set your position and refs actually were allowed to evaluate the situation and make a ruling.

No, pretty soon continuation will be added to college basketball, and Ohio State will be allowed to trample over Penn State 1-3-1 zones and Ohio State will get two shots every time. The tipping point was Penn State not being allowed to compete for the national championship in 2009. They were deemed not worthy due to their non conference strength of schedule. Yeah, in today’s basketball, it’s not really about how you finish in your conference standings anyway, it’s about who you played in your non conference and how you finished in a conference tournament. Yup, that’s what “matters” these days. You know, the things that don’t matter. Because after all, it’s well intentioned, so we can’t question it. It’s better now. Because ESPN’s celebrity sports news creator says so.

“The tipping point”? LMAO.

Seriously, you have to be the only person in the country that thinks that.

Lar, you need to look at the facts. He’s right. Did you also know that they moved the NCAA 3 point line back a few years ago because of the stellar shooting of Danny Morrissey.


#18

Germany beat Serbia by one point:

Jan-Hendrik Jagla, the former Penn State star, hit a desperation 3-pointer to beat the shot clock with 1:03 left in the second overtime and Germany held on.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/149211951


#19

[quote=“Tom, post:18, topic:1319”]Germany beat Serbia by one point:

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/149211951[/quote]

The shot.

Jan-Hendrik Jagla - The Shot - FIBA 2010 - Deutschland vs. Serbien


#20
[quote="tundra, post:4, topic:1319"]In the 50s and 60s the rest of the world trained their coaches on basketball fundamentals by watching US college/NBA video footage! I am a little ashamed what they would see now. How about taking 3 steps on a lay-up..............or catching the ball.......taking a step...........THEN establishing a pivot foot. USA hoopers have gotten away from fundamentals in part because refs DO NOT call violations when they occur. Why refs do not call violations??............Well that is another whole discussion.[/quote]

It’s another discussion, but it’s related to basketball, the FIFA championships, and frankly it’s going to affect Jan Jagla. Moving back the 3 point line could help Jagla as he is a good distance 3 point shooter. However, Jan is a good defensive player and has been able to out think his opponents in the post.

As far as US college / NBA footage, over time, the game has changed. Mostly, the game has improved. Recently, the game has been butchered. This is no secret or conspiracy. These new NBA rules have taken over not just america, but the world. and frankly, european and international basketball is a more pure game than the NBA. There was zone defense before the NBA had it. it never had gimmics like no charge zones.

It’s not just in basketball. There are a lot of firsts in the world of sports these days. In the winter Olympics, amateurs used to compete in hockey, now pros compete. In the winter olympics this year, for the first time ever, olympic hockey was competed on an NHL-sized rink instead of an international sized rink. Yeah, not many seemed to even notice but to me that was very telling.

The David Stern NBA rules with modified zone defense with no charge zone lines has no become the “standard”, when 15 years ago no one ever heard of such a thing and if you predicted something like this would occur, people would think you were crazy back then. Now it’s normal and crazy is a world without no charge zones where you can play defense set your position and refs actually were allowed to evaluate the situation and make a ruling.

No, pretty soon continuation will be added to college basketball, and Ohio State will be allowed to trample over Penn State 1-3-1 zones and Ohio State will get two shots every time. The tipping point was Penn State not being allowed to compete for the national championship in 2009. They were deemed not worthy due to their non conference strength of schedule. Yeah, in today’s basketball, it’s not really about how you finish in your conference standings anyway, it’s about who you played in your non conference and how you finished in a conference tournament. Yup, that’s what “matters” these days. You know, the things that don’t matter. Because after all, it’s well intentioned, so we can’t question it. It’s better now. Because ESPN’s celebrity sports news creator says so.

“The tipping point”? LMAO.

Seriously, you have to be the only person in the country that thinks that.

Lar, you need to look at the facts. He’s right. Did you also know that they moved the NCAA 3 point line back a few years ago because of the stellar shooting of Danny Morrissey.

You learn something new every day. :wink: