PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Grow a set

I think it’s time for Penn State fans to grow a set. Bad calls happen to everybody, not just us. There’s no vast Tubby-wing conspiracy working against Penn State, crap happens. Perhaps every fan base is as whiny as ours, but since I don’t frequent their forums, I wouldn’t really know.

Andrew Jones gets a foul and it’s the ref’s fault, he’s on the take. nevermind the fact that Andrew has averaged about 2.5 fouls per game his entire career and he’s fouled out of 10 games out of the 125 that he has played.

Minny goest to the line after a slight touch from one of our guys and we bitch how our guys are getting mugged yet most forget about plays such as Jackson pulling off the biggest flop since Ishtar.

We bitch about the refs slowing down the flow of the game to check the clock towards the end of the Purdue game but expect the refs to call time and make sure that all of our players and coaches have their shoes tied and noses wiped and are really, really, no, REALLY ready for Talor’s foul shot.

We want the refs to swallow their whistles down the stretch unless it’s a foul in our favor.

We spout that no other schools suffer the calls that we do yet never consider that we watch damn near every PSU home game and very few opponents home games that don’t involve us.

Penn State never gets any home cooking while forgetting things like the 51-21 advantage we had at home vs MSU in 2008.

Selectors who put more weight in overall SOS rather than focusing solely on conf play are in ESPN’s pocket and are swayed by the soul of Tubby Smith.

Blame the recent PLCB activities on Spanier without checking to see if similar actions are taking place in other towns.

It’s like those who focus on the melting point of steel while ignoring the fact that steel can, and always does fail structurally before it melts.

[move]NEWSFLASH!!! [/move]

We Won the game!

Why are people still focusing on the great conspiracy against Penn State? I think PSU hoops fans have embraced the tortured artist role for so long that we look for storm clouds on a sunny day. Then when we do find an anvil cloud, it has to be a targeted injustice, because after all, bad weather only happens to us.

I was happy with the win until I started reading the whining on the boards.

…and for those who don’t already have my unlisted phone number, it’s 867-5709. I look forward to erasing your messages.

I just want to see PSU get home cooking like other naturally teams do. Is that too much to ask once in a while?

It would be pretty stupid to assume that we’re only getting bad officiating in the games that we lost, so I see no reason why anyone should hold their complaints simply because of the outcome. A bad call is a bad call is a bad call, and it doesn’t make it less awful because we won the game.

In terms of watching other teams - a lot of us watch plenty of other games. Perhaps we don’t see other individual teams play quite as many times as PSU, but this also isn’t the first year we’ve seen basketball either. Again… a bad call is a bad call.

Is some of the complaining just typical homerism? Sure. Most of it I guess. But just because you’re a homer doesn’t mean you’re always wrong. Have you ever in your life seen Izzo or Ryan get a ridiculous call like the Andrew Jones one against them in a crucial moment of a game like that? I have not. And I’ve probably seen over 100 games between the two of them as coaches.

I’m not saying they don’t have bad judgement calls made against them. But that was a lack of respect for Ed, what that ref pulled last night… and I don’t believe for one second that this ref has the balls to make that call against a more well-known coach/program. Not a conspiracy, just how little respect I believe officials have for our team. If you don’t think that type of thing has any effect on your typical game, then YOU haven’t watched enough basketball. Star treatment goes for coaches and programs as well.

Ditto (though what is a “naturally team”? ;D)

Oh, and allow me to add that after that awful call at Purdue, many Big Ten boards, about four of them (a couple Illinois, MSU and Wisconsin, I think) all made a comment about how PSU got screwed and gets screwed a lot. So it’s not just us thinking that we get screwed.

Honestly, I didn’t really take issue with how closely they were calling the game. But I saw Sampson, Imbakwe (how the heck do you spell his name) and Iverson pushing PSU around on their offensive glass and getting no calls for their actions. Yet Brooks/Jones tap their players the same way and whistles blow. Call it both ways, I can live with that.

              • Ya know, I was once on a SCum and a tO$U message board and remember posters lashing out saying they DO NOT get football ref breaks - - - - - - - - -

Had a good laugh…gosh, ain’t life fair :o

This is all perception bias, IMO. Bad calls against the opponents barely register, if at all.

Once more, They Saw a Game

Nearly all Princeton students judged the game as "rough and dirty"— not one of them thought it "clean and fair." And almost ninetenths of them thought the other side started the rough play. By and large they felt that the charges they understood were being made were true; most of them felt the charges were made in order to avoid similar situations in the future.

When Princeton students looked at the movie of the game, they saw the Dartmouth team make over twice as many infractions as their own team made. And they saw the Dartmouth team make over twice as many infractions as were seen by Dartmouth students. When Princeton students judged these infractions as “flagrant” or “mild,” the ratio was about two “flagrant” to one “mild” on the Dartmouth team, and about one “flagrant” to three “mild” on the Princeton team.

As for the Dartmouth students, while the plurality of answers fell in the “rough and dirty” category, over one-tenth thought the game was “clean and fair” and over a third introduced their own category of “rough and fair” to describe the action. Although a third of the Dartmouth students felt that Dartmouth was to blame for starting the rough play, the majority of Dartmouth students thought both sides were to blame. By and large, Dartmouth men felt that the charges they understood were being made were not true, and most of them thought the reason for the charges was Princeton’s concern for its football star.

When Dartmouth students looked at the movie of the game they saw both teams make about the same number of infractions. And they saw their own team make only half the number of infractions the Princeton students saw them make. The ratio of “flagrant” to “mild” infractions was about one to one when Dartmouth students judged the Dartmouth team, and about one “flagrant” to two “mild” when Dartmouth students judged infractions made by the Princeton team.

[quote=“manatree, post:1, topic:1956”]I think it’s time for Penn State fans to grow a set. Bad calls happen to everybody, not just us. There’s no vast Tubby-wing conspiracy working against Penn State, crap happens. Perhaps every fan base is as whiny as ours, but since I don’t frequent their forums, I wouldn’t really know.

Andrew Jones gets a foul and it’s the ref’s fault, he’s on the take. nevermind the fact that Andrew has averaged about 2.5 fouls per game his entire career and he’s fouled out of 10 games out of the 125 that he has played.

Minny goest to the line after a slight touch from one of our guys and we bitch how our guys are getting mugged yet most forget about plays such as Jackson pulling off the biggest flop since Ishtar.

We bitch about the refs slowing down the flow of the game to check the clock towards the end of the Purdue game but expect the refs to call time and make sure that all of our players and coaches have their shoes tied and noses wiped and are really, really, no, REALLY ready for Talor’s foul shot.

We want the refs to swallow their whistles down the stretch unless it’s a foul in our favor.

We spout that no other schools suffer the calls that we do yet never consider that we watch damn near every PSU home game and very few opponents home games that don’t involve us.

Penn State never gets any home cooking while forgetting things like the 51-21 advantage we had at home vs MSU in 2008.

Selectors who put more weight in overall SOS rather than focusing solely on conf play are in ESPN’s pocket and are swayed by the soul of Tubby Smith.

Blame the recent PLCB activities on Spanier without checking to see if similar actions are taking place in other towns.

It’s like those who focus on the melting point of steel while ignoring the fact that steel can, and always does fail structurally before it melts.

[move]NEWSFLASH!!! [/move]

We Won the game!

Why are people still focusing on the great conspiracy against Penn State? I think PSU hoops fans have embraced the tortured artist role for so long that we look for storm clouds on a sunny day. Then when we do find an anvil cloud, it has to be a targeted injustice, because after all, bad weather only happens to us.

I was happy with the win until I started reading the whining on the boards.

…and for those who don’t already have my unlisted phone number, it’s 867-5709. I look forward to erasing your messages.[/quote]

POTY

The amount of complaining in the In-Game Threads is just awful. It amazes me how every single game, posters think that the refs have it in for us. And it’s not just PSU hoops fans, PSU football fans are just as bad. Whether it’s the NCAA, the Big Ten, the refs, the media, everyone has it in for us.

I will state that at the end of the day, I do think that we don’t get quite the home cooking that other schools get. That is because referees (the newer, less experienced ones in particular) can certainly be influenced (subconsciously) by a very hostile home crowd. If you have the entire crowd on you, you’re certainly going to be a little hesitant to make a tough call against the home squad and get that crowd even more worked up. Since the BJC is far from hostile (at least most nights), I don’t think we see the same level of home cooking that is seen elsewhere.

However, that home cooking is very minimal at the end of the day. I completely disagreed with Tim Higgins call last night, however that was one of the first calls this season that I thought was handled that poorly. But it’s like the boy who cried wolf around here, where a majority of the posters (or at least it seems like a majority) think that we’re getting screwed every single night.

[quote=“tjb, post:6, topic:1956”]This is all perception bias, IMO. Bad calls against the opponents barely register, if at all.

Once more, They Saw a Game

[quote]Nearly all Princeton students judged the game as “rough and dirty”— not one of them thought it “clean and fair.” And almost ninetenths of them thought the other side started the rough play. By and large they felt that the charges they understood were being made were true; most of them felt the charges were made in order to avoid similar situations in the future.

When Princeton students looked at the movie of the game, they saw the Dartmouth team make over twice as many infractions as their own team made. And they saw the Dartmouth team make over twice as many infractions as were seen by Dartmouth students. When Princeton students judged these infractions as “flagrant” or “mild,” the ratio was about two “flagrant” to one “mild” on the Dartmouth team, and about one “flagrant” to three “mild” on the Princeton team.

As for the Dartmouth students, while the plurality of answers fell in the “rough and dirty” category, over one-tenth thought the game was “clean and fair” and over a third introduced their own category of “rough and fair” to describe the action. Although a third of the Dartmouth students felt that Dartmouth was to blame for starting the rough play, the majority of Dartmouth students thought both sides were to blame. By and large, Dartmouth men felt that the charges they understood were being made were not true, and most of them thought the reason for the charges was Princeton’s concern for its football star.

When Dartmouth students looked at the movie of the game they saw both teams make about the same number of infractions. And they saw their own team make only half the number of infractions the Princeton students saw them make. The ratio of “flagrant” to “mild” infractions was about one to one when Dartmouth students judged the Dartmouth team, and about one “flagrant” to two “mild” when Dartmouth students judged infractions made by the Princeton team.[/quote][/quote]

What do Dartmoth and Princeton students know about basketball? ::slight_smile:

The type of game the refs are going to call and the style of play each team plays also plays into this. In past years Purdue has been an extremely aggressive defensive team. We haven’t always been. If the refs let the play, their bumps and chucks don’t get called while our more petty stuff does. If they call a tight game, it looks like Purdue is getting screwed and we are benefitting. Last night with all the contact inside, I think they took the approach that it takes two to tango. A lot of the calls on us were more in open space.

And better athletic teams/players (or maybe the term I am looking for is smoother looking) often get the benefit of the doubt. Battle is the perfect example of this. As great as he is, he often looks like a chicken with his head cut off when he drives to the basket. Even when he is in control and finishes well, he still looks kind of awkward and he takes an awful lot of contact that isn’t called. Other players like Evan Turner or Morris from Michigan look smooth and under control even when they’re not. They seem to get the benefit of calls with less contact.

That being said I thought there were a lot of bad calls last night. Higgins was not in position to see Frazier’s steal/foul and made an assumption. He also called Brooks (or maybe Jones) for a push when the two players’ legs got crossed up. I thought it was a no call, but could have been a foul. Again, though I don’t think Higgins saw it. He just saw the Minnesota player go flying. And I’m sure if I cared about Minnesota, I could come up with a couple of fouls on them I thought were bad.

And the older dark haired ref seemed to have some issue with world. He was jawing with Tubby early in the game to the point I thought he was going to T him up. It seemed like he was being a little agressive towards our bench to, but I sit behind the visitors, so couldn’t tell as well.

I assume that you’re talking about Ray Perone. If you really want to get PSU fans fired up, I can give you a connection between him and another official that is hated by the PSU fanbase. Ray’s “day job” is that he runs the Honig’s Whistle Stop store up in North Jersey. Honig’s Whistle stop is owned by Dick Honig, who was the official that JoePa chased down at the end of the Iowa game in 2002. If this doesn’t prove some type of conspiracy and that Perone hates PSU, then I don’t know what does.

[quote="JohnT, post:10, topic:1956"]And the older dark haired ref seemed to have some issue with world.[/quote]

I assume that you’re talking about Ray Perone. If you really want to get PSU fans fired up, I can give you a connection between him and another official that is hated by the PSU fanbase. Ray’s “day job” is that he runs the Honig’s Whistle Stop store up in North Jersey. Honig’s Whistle stop is owned by Dick Honig, who was the official that JoePa chased down at the end of the Iowa game in 2002. If this doesn’t prove some type of conspiracy and that Perone hates PSU, then I don’t know what does.

POTY runner-up.

I didn’t think the reffing was top notch last night, but I thought calls were blown both ways. The timing on some of PSU’s calls was particularly bad, and I the foul call on Frazier for his clean steal I thought was the worst call of the game. On the Minnesota side, I noticed at least once or twice that Colton Iverson got called for a foul when he was just standing still with his arms straight up in the air (once was when Battle drove wildly into the lane and initiated contact on him).

I don’t buy conspiracy theories, and I know being a basketball referee is very difficult, but I’d love to see more consistency.

I don’t buy conspiracy theories either…

But if we didn’t complain at least a few times about the refs, we wouldn’t be human. Let me guess 'tree…if you were sitting in the front row behind the Purdue basket at Mackey and watched what transpired with five seconds to go, would you have just sat on your hands and said nothing? You’re human…you’d complain about that call just like everyone else on this board (except for Lar, who would be bouncing onto this board loading up the ammo to debate anyone who thinks differently about the call ;)).

Argue every call that goes against the Blue and White…yeah I take issue with that too. I don’t ref, I coach, but I do have respect for the job that they have to do. And that’s what it must come down to…respect.

It’s too childish to call it a conspiracy theory. I don’t believe that there is a conspiracy against Penn State. I don’t think any of those officials hate Penn State or try to make them lose.

HOWEVER, I do believe that officials are influenced by several factors, most of which work against Penn State. For that reason, I do think that Penn State comes out on the short end of the stick when it comes to officiating.

Some of those factors are:

1.) School history: I think a Kentucky team with Calipari on the sidelines will get more calls than an Auburn team with Jeff Lebo on the sidelines.

2.) Name recognition: A close call with a lot of contact between Andrew Brommer and Jared Sullinger will go which way? Seriously.

3.) Crowds: Publicly, refs say it doesn’t matter. Privately, they will admit that it affects “other” refs.

Notice for #3 that I didn’t say home court. Another area where Penn State falls short. We just don’t have the home crowd that will influence a ref.

As a youngster my father took me to a lot of Duquesne games. Being a bright lad ::slight_smile: it seemed to me the refs seemed to be same most games. I asked my father “why.” He said “I would guess, they know who butters their bread.”

Of course, I have no knowledge of BigT10en101010 refs.

P.S. Youngsters who do not eat “buttered bread” may not understand the reference!

I think that basketball is the hardest sport to officiate. When you’re on the floor with those guys, especially at that high of a level, things happen very fast. The other thing with officiating in basketball is that it is an important part of the game. The referees have a large role in helping establish the rhythm of the game and how it’s played. At times they struggle with this at every level. I don’t think I’ve ever really walked away from a PSU game thinking refs “have it in” for PSU, its players, or its coaches. I wonder sometimes if officials work too many games, but that’s another debate.

I posted on the Purdue call and the free throw call because I thought they were interesting calls worth discussing, that’s all.

And hey, if you can’t overreact and complain a little on a message board, where can you?

One of the more vivid memories of my college experience, is going into the refs locker rooms after a game to take them their post game subs and sodas. Jody Sylvester, Art McDonald, and the third that I can’t remember sitting in their underwear, smoking cigarettes, and laughing/bitching about Parkhill. During the game he used to yell at the refs that they’d never work another game at Penn State when he was mad at them. This was A10 days in the late 80s. Based on what I heard, I don’t think they would have blown a call to get under Bruce’s skin, but I definitely think they modified their behavior on the court to piss him off.

Agreed on the non-issue. Only call I had an issue with all season was the late out of bounds blown call at Purdue. Costly, to say the least, and clearly blown.

On AJ, you ever notice his fouls? I bet 2/3 of his fouls are either on moving screens or pushing off rebounding at both ends of the court. Maybe a little work on those skills would be more useful than complaining about officiating, and allow him to play in more than 5 minute stretches. Re pushing off, did anybody notice the pushoff that Brooks got away with late? It was awful, so yes, it goes both ways.

How could they not? They’re only human.

That goes both ways - we can’t expect them to be perfect and I don’t mind mistakes once in awhile. What I am annoyed with however, are situations where a ref can do the right thing and chooses not to for whatever reason… ego, spite, ignorance… last night was one of those cases where I don’t know what the reasoning was for going with that call, but the right thing to do was just reset the situation like you almost always see a ref do. The absolute worst thing to do was what he did: get involved when he didn’t have to. You could see DJ tries to leave the block at the same time AJ does but sees the ball is coming and jumps back in real quickly - nobody was ready for that ball to come into play and the ref should have made sure they were… that’s basically his only job in that moment during a game. Shame on the other two for not stepping in and saving him from making that call also.

The other thing that bothers me about refs in basketball is that not only will they be inconsistent, but they almost always go out of their way to “even things up”. As if all teams foul an equal amount, or that a team that had a lot of early calls on them “deserves” some calls to get total team fouls closer to even.

I think this is a huge part of the game right now and has waaay too much influence over the way games are called and in turn, how games are played. Officiating can completely change the flow and momentum of a game, and seemingly every game I watch anymore the officials choices are becoming as important as the coaches and players… I don’t think that’s how the game should be played, personally.