PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Ed's "up-tempo" style


#1

It was one of the first things he talked about when getting this job, brought it up in the press conference on day 1. Are we ever going to actually see it? We’ve been waiting for almost a decade


#2

You need to give him time to get the right kind of players to run this system. Remember, Dunn left the program barren. It takes time to build a program. All that matters is that we are better now than we were in Dunn’s last season.


#3
[quote="psu_DC, post:1, topic:1638"]It was one of the first things he talked about when getting this job, brought it up in the press conference on day 1. Are we ever going to actually see it? We've been waiting for almost a decade[/quote]

You need to give him time to get the right kind of players to run this system. Remember, Dunn left the program barren. It takes time to build a program. All that matters is that we are better now than we were in Dunn’s last season.

That appears to be true, but I’ll wait for the Big Ten season to decide for sure. Last year’s team, I’m not really sure was any better than Dunn’s last team


#4

In order to understand the situation you have to think like the AD. 1. Obviously money is important and the team is making money 2. Ed has 3 years left on his contract after this season. Are they going to be willing to give him money not to coach? 3. Ed is making very little money relatively speaking compared to other BCS coaches 4. the "other " category which is a whole bunch of excuses that have been used before such as injuries, close games, and the “vision” of the program. Ultimately, most of it comes down to money. If some donor gave them millions of dollars and said they would pay for a new coach then you’d have one.


#5

What do you think they did with Jerry Dunn? Forced him to resign with no pay? I don’t think so.


#6
[quote="psu_DC, post:1, topic:1638"]It was one of the first things he talked about when getting this job, brought it up in the press conference on day 1. Are we ever going to actually see it? We've been waiting for almost a decade[/quote]

You need to give him time to get the right kind of players to run this system. Remember, Dunn left the program barren. It takes time to build a program. All that matters is that we are better now than we were in Dunn’s last season.

That appears to be true, but I’ll wait for the Big Ten season to decide for sure. Last year’s team, I’m not really sure was any better than Dunn’s last team

I’ve said this before, I have to be honest with you. I don’t think this year’s team is as good as last year’s team. I know, scary thought, but compare the 2 teams. Have any of the holdovers gotten better? Myabe Frazier a little bit. Brooks has looked exactly like he did last year. He shows up against the crap part of the schedule and then disappears when the competition gets decent. It comes down to the benches. Basically Buie and Oliver versus Ott, Babb and Edwards.

Now as for the notion that this program is much better off than when Dunn left. I don’t buy into that hype. What was left here when Dunn left? If my memory is correct we had guys like Chambliss, Jagla, Smith, Riley, Tate and Watkins. Is anyone here going to argue with me that this year’s team is a better collection of talent than that collection of players?


#7
[quote="psu_DC, post:1, topic:1638"]It was one of the first things he talked about when getting this job, brought it up in the press conference on day 1. Are we ever going to actually see it? We've been waiting for almost a decade[/quote]

You need to give him time to get the right kind of players to run this system. Remember, Dunn left the program barren. It takes time to build a program. All that matters is that we are better now than we were in Dunn’s last season.

You’re right. I still remember how hopeless it seemed in 2002 and 2003, even though we still had some good players like Jagla and Sharif Chambliss. And I remembered DeChellis’s first game against Georgetown. I was amazed that we led by 9 points at the half. And the game came down to the last second, and i said wow what a difference a coach made to those group of guys.

i think you see the up-tempo style in players like Battle, and at times Brooks. Guys that can beat you off the dribble with a quick first step, run the fast break, hustle for loose balls, etc. The “up-tempo” style is a style that makes every possession difficult for our opponents. The “up-tempo” style in theory is a style that has quick passing in the half court and dynamic off-ball movement. Last season and this season, there have been a lot of stop-and-go in the half court. up-tempo works best when you play with a purpose and you do things for a reason, instead of just guessing at things to do to fill the time provided. In the next two weeks, and especially in the game against Maine, we have to use Maine to instill a vision of how to win possession by possession. make every team we play for the rest of the year uncomfortable. show them things they’ve never seen before, create situations where they are out of position and we have the slack. turn the tables. this group has done it before.


#8

Which is ridiculous. After his 4th season it was evident he was taking this nowhere. An NIT win truly was the peak. The school should admit their mistake and buy him out. Hopefully they were not so stupid as to omit a buyout clause in a contract with a coach who finishes in last place more often than not. I doubt the buyout is that expensive, relatively speaking. As for the solution, we don’t need a movie star who is demanding all kinds of money. Every single March, there are a handful of guys that emerge as rising stars in the mid majors. Pick one who has some kind if ties to mid-atlantic recruiting (which Ed did not - the AD’s biggest oversight), and/or who has a reputation for being a great teacher of the game. They would probably jump at the chance to come to the big ten. It’s expensive, but not off the charts expensive. Keeping the guy after he succeeds is the expensive part. cross that bridge when you come to it


#9

Please be kind-lay off this guy-he is a gentleman, a great family man, and does charitable work. That’s all we are shooting for here. Remember, if you get a good coach, you risk the chance of getting a bad person, one not family oriented, and a person not willing to help others. My only fear is that Ed might wipe away his forehead with his double directional sideline wipes. There is no known forehead transplant at this point.


#10

Yeah i think we all worry about this one.;D


#11

What was left here when Dunn left? If my memory is correct we had guys like Chambliss, Jagla, Smith, Riley, Tate and Watkins. Is anyone here going to argue with me that this year’s team is a better collection of talent than that collection of players?

Ed arrived, and before week one was over Sharif said he was looking to transfer and about 30 days later and 6 months before the first game, he was gone to the Badgers. Technically he was here when Ed arrived but IMO it is just flat out wrong to include him in players that Ed had in his stable of players. Smith was the first player recruited by Ed, so no he was not part of the Dunn era. Watkins had already graduated so, no he was not any part of Ed’s talent base.
Tate had played a total of 5 games in Dunn’s last year and then sat out the entire first season that Ed was HC. So no, Tate was not any part of Ed’s first year talent base, and his final season (after sitting out Ed’s first year), while admirable that he made it back, was played with diminished skills than the player that made some contributions to the Sweet 16 team.
Your right about Riley ( who played here one year, showed promise but left and never performed at the same level in D1 again) and Jagla. I’ll give you 2 out of 5, not sure if that meets your expectations of your memory serving you right.
Like I said not beating a drum for Ed at all but the cupboard really was bare and your depiction of those available is inaccurate. So yeah, this years team has more talent, and it really isn’t close. Trouble is, given the competition improvemnt, we are not relatively better now than we were then.


#12

[quote=“Duff, post:11, topic:1638”]What was left here when Dunn left? If my memory is correct we had guys like Chambliss, Jagla, Smith, Riley, Tate and Watkins. Is anyone here going to argue with me that this year’s team is a better collection of talent than that collection of players?

Ed arrived, and before week one was over Sharif said he was looking to transfer and about 30 days later and 6 months before the first game, he was gone to the Badgers. Technically he was here when Ed arrived but IMO it is just flat out wrong to include him in players that Ed had in his stable of players. Smith was the first player recruited by Ed, so no he was not part of the Dunn era. Watkins had already graduated so, no he was not any part of Ed’s talent base.
Tate had played a total of 5 games in Dunn’s last year and then sat out the entire first season that Ed was HC. So no, Tate was not any part of Ed’s first year talent base, and his final season (after sitting out Ed’s first year), while admirable that he made it back, was played with diminished skills than the player that made some contributions to the Sweet 16 team.
Your right about Riley ( who played here one year, showed promise but left and never performed at the same level in D1 again) and Jagla. I’ll give you 2 out of 5, not sure if that meets your expectations of your memory serving you right.
Like I said not beating a drum for Ed at all but the cupboard really was bare and your depiction of those available is inaccurate.[/quote]

Yes, the cupboard really was bare. And it’s really going to be bare next year when we may or may not be at the beginning of a new coaching regime. So we’re back where we started 8 years ago. Was anything at all accomplished?


#13
[quote="Duff, post:11, topic:1638"][b]What was left here when Dunn left? If my memory is correct we had guys like Chambliss, Jagla, Smith, Riley, Tate and Watkins. Is anyone here going to argue with me that this year's team is a better collection of talent than that collection of players?[/b] Ed arrived, and before week one was over Sharif said he was looking to transfer and about 30 days later and 6 months before the first game, he was gone to the Badgers. Technically he was here when Ed arrived but IMO it is just flat out wrong to include him in players that Ed had in his stable of players. Smith was the first player recruited by Ed, so no he was not part of the Dunn era. Watkins had already graduated so, no he was not any part of Ed's talent base. Tate had played a total of 5 games in Dunn's last year and then sat out the entire first season that Ed was HC. So no, Tate was not any part of Ed's first year talent base, and his final season (after sitting out Ed's first year), while admirable that he made it back, was played with diminished skills than the player that made some contributions to the Sweet 16 team. Your right about Riley ( who played here one year, showed promise but left and never performed at the same level in D1 again) and Jagla. I'll give you 2 out of 5, not sure if that meets your expectations of your memory serving you right. Like I said not beating a drum for Ed at all but the cupboard really was bare and your depiction of those available is inaccurate.[/quote] Yes, the cupboard really was bare. And it's really going to be bare next year when we may or may not be at the beginning of a new coaching regime. So we're back where we started 8 years ago. Was anything at all accomplished?
Does not look like it and that sucks.

#14

[quote=“Duff, post:11, topic:1638”]Ed arrived, and before week one was over Sharif said he was looking to transfer and about 30 days later and 6 months before the first game, he was gone to the Badgers. Technically he was here when Ed arrived but IMO it is just flat out wrong to include him in players that Ed had in his stable of players. Smith was the first player recruited by Ed, so no he was not part of the Dunn era. Watkins had already graduated so, no he was not any part of Ed’s talent base.
Tate had played a total of 5 games in Dunn’s last year and then sat out the entire first season that Ed was HC. So no, Tate was not any part of Ed’s first year talent base, and his final season (after sitting out Ed’s first year), while admirable that he made it back, was played with diminished skills than the player that made some contributions to the Sweet 16 team.
Your right about Riley ( who played here one year, showed promise but left and never performed at the same level in D1 again) and Jagla. I’ll give you 2 out of 5, not sure if that meets your expectations of your memory serving you right.
Like I said not beating a drum for Ed at all but the cupboard really was bare and your depiction of those available is inaccurate. So yeah, this years team has more talent, and it really isn’t close. Trouble is, given the competition improvemnt, we are not relatively better now than we were then. [/quote]

  1. I know that Chambliss left before Ed coached a game. I disagree about not including him in what was left behind. We’re talking about the talent these guys brought in. Dunn brought Chambliss in here.
  2. I was wrong about Watkins. I thought he had 1 year with Ed.
  3. I meant Tyler Smith not Marlon. But I was wrong here as well, he had also graduated.
  4. Tate was an unfortunate situation, to include him is probably wrong. But again, he was a talent and Dunn brought him in here.
  5. Riley did have some good seasons at Southern and was a major piece of an NCAA tournament team.

I forgot about Aaron Johnson who was left behind by Dunn as well. Regardless of the errors of my memory, as psu_DC has already brought up, whether or not Ed leaves after this season, how much better will next year’s team be than Ed’s first team? The idea that Ed has somehow raised the bar for talent by some incredible level is absurd. Crispin, Ivory, Cline-Heard, Chambliss, Watkins, Hojo, Jagla, Riley, Tate, Tyler Smith. Those guys were all talents when they came here. And I think they stack up very well against Battle, Claxton, Cornley, Pringle, Parker and whoever else you can come up with.


#15
[quote="Duff, post:11, topic:1638"]Ed arrived, and before week one was over [b]Sharif said he was looking to transfer and about 30 days later and 6 months before the first game, he was gone to the Badgers[/b]. Technically he was here when Ed arrived but IMO it is just flat out wrong to include him in players that Ed had in his stable of players. [b]Smith was the first player recruited by Ed, so no he was not part of the Dunn era[/b]. [b]Watkins had already graduated[/b] so, no he was not any part of Ed's talent base. [b]Tate had played a total of 5 games in Dunn's last year and then sat out the entire first season that Ed was HC[/b]. So no, Tate was not any part of Ed's first year talent base, and his final season (after sitting out Ed's first year), while admirable that he made it back, was played with diminished skills than the player that made some contributions to the Sweet 16 team. [b]Your right about Riley ( who played here one year, showed promise but left and never performed at the same level in D1 again[/b]) and Jagla. I'll give you 2 out of 5, not sure if that meets your expectations of your memory serving you right. Like I said not beating a drum for Ed at all but the cupboard really was bare and your depiction of those available is inaccurate. So yeah, this years team has more talent, and it really isn't close. Trouble is, given the competition improvemnt, we are not relatively better now than we were then.[/quote]
  1. I know that Chambliss left before Ed coached a game. I disagree about not including him in what was left behind. We’re talking about the talent these guys brought in. Dunn brought Chambliss in here.
  2. I was wrong about Watkins. I thought he had 1 year with Ed.
  3. I meant Tyler Smith not Marlon. But I was wrong here as well, he had also graduated.
  4. Tate was an unfortunate situation, to include him is probably wrong. But again, he was a talent and Dunn brought him in here.
  5. Riley did have some good seasons at Southern and was a major piece of an NCAA tournament team.

I forgot about Aaron Johnson who was left behind by Dunn as well. Regardless of the errors of my memory, as psu_DC has already brought up, whether or not Ed leaves after this season, how much better will next year’s team be than Ed’s first team? The idea that Ed has somehow raised the bar for talent by some incredible level is absurd. Crispin, Ivory, Cline-Heard, Chambliss, Watkins, Hojo, Jagla, Riley, Tate, Tyler Smith. Those guys were all talents when they came here. And I think they stack up very well against Battle, Claxton, Cornley, Pringle, Parker and whoever else you can come up with.

pmhewitt, the thing that almost nobody wants to admit - and probably certainly not the AD - is that Ed has not advanced this program one inch beyond where Jerry Dunn was taking it. And in fact he has achieved less than Jerry Dunn in the same amount of time. And this is in spite of the fact that Ed was given contract extensions that gave him more certainty about his job status (a good recruiting tool) than Dunn had at any point during his PSU career. This includes the period following the 2001 season, which was more successful than any season that either Ed or he and Tim Curley’s spiritual leader for hoops (Bruce Parkhill), ever put together. Curley rewarded Dunn for that great season by leaving him hanging with no contract for a month or more. Ed would have gotten a 20+ year extension. Somebody needs to ask Curley some very serious questions about what the hell his expectation is, and why Ed’s lousy performance is just fine if Dunn’s performance was not fine.

The best things that Ed did were bringing in Geary Claxton, Jamelle Cornley, and Talor Battle. For the most part, he did very little to develop the teams around them so that PSU would be competitive in the Big Ten. 2008-2009 was the only exception, and fell short of really being meaningful to the program. I’m sure I’ll get attacked for that, but I won’t change my mind. An NIT championship is slightly more valuable than a big upset during the regular season in terms of program prestige - in other words, great but quickly forgotten


#16

I first want to comment on the up temp style. Before this season I had no idea that’s what Ed wanted to do. I found out that he wanted to go up tempo when I started to read articles and read what people have said on the board. I’ve never considered this team to be up tempo and I haven’t seen much evidence from the games. Even the Va Tech announcers were saying that we play a much slower style and that Va Tech is the team that wants to get out and run.

As far as Ed goes I started to lose confidence in him last season and when I saw his overall results I wasn’t impressed (and I’m still not). There’s still time for us to try and run an up tempo style, I just don’t know what the results will be.


#17

I certainly think we have the personnel to run an up tempo style but I have serious doubts. Of course a key component of up tempo is on the defensive side with either a trapping zone or full court press of some sort. Whenever we rarely throw our press out there, it seems to just look miserable. Usually broken down within 1 pass and tends to lead to a 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 easy fast break opportunity. Just seems really out of sync. Makes me wonder if we go over it all that much in practice.


#18

Three things are needed for a successful uptempo game:

  1. Good guards - check. I think our guards could play uptempo all game long (Talor, Tarran and Tim).

  2. Tight man to man defense that forces turnover (haven’t seen that yet).

  3. Great defensive rebounding that gets the ball out quickly to the outlet man (haven’t seen much of that - we tend to cover up defensive rebounds and hand the ball off to Talor or Tim).


#19

ANYTHING a coach does has “good benefits” and “bad benefits.” The coach weighs the goods and bads and then makes a decision. This team (last year and this year) does not seem comfortable, nor very good, with a running style. Thus I think it’s a good coaching decision to play more of a half court style. Plus our team is very thin talent wise. Up tempo can many times lead to more fouling. Plus when it comes to the BigTen season if I am Ed, I want to “shorten games” NOT expand games. Shortening games generally give a better chance to the lesser talented team.


#20

It’s hard to go up tempo with a short bench too and our bench is definitely short.