Change of Pace


#1

Sorry to bring up an old issue. If someone wants to draw a comparison (pro or con) between Pirate management and PSU basketball management go right ahead.

From the NY Daily News…

" Next up: the Pirates, who have been the most blatant team of all when it comes to pocketing their revenue sharing, trading off all their highest-paid players and creating a mausoleum of their beautiful taxpayer-funded new park. The Pirates, who have had 17 consecutive losing seasons, have ranked in the bottom four of payroll the last six years. Last year, they began the season ranked 28th of 30 teams with a payroll of $48 million but finished at around $25 million after trading off shortstop Jack Wilson, outfielder Nate McLouth, first baseman Adam LaRoche, second baseman Freddy Sanchez and pitchers Ian Snell and John Grabow for a bunch of minimum salary unproven prospects.

That accounted for $28.6 million in shed payroll, but team president Frank Coonelly justifies the jettisoning of their six best players by invoking the old Branch Rickey line to Ralph Kiner: “We finished last with you, we can just easily finish last without you.” Tell that to the Pirate fans who deserve so much better. But have faith, Buc faithful. The players’ union is coming to your rescue.

According to sources familiar with what went down between Selig and Players Association honchos last week, the union has targeted four teams - the Marlins, Pirates, Rays and San Diego Padres - against whom they’ve threatened to file a grievance if they don’t get their payrolls up in accordance to the revenue-sharing formula in the Basic Agreement."


#2

As an M’s fan I will come to the Pirates defense and say that getting rid of Ian Snell was a smart move. That he was one of their 6 best players is both scary and sad.


#3

I have to applaud what the latest management group has done. They saw that their system was broken top to bottom and made the hard decision to blow the whole thing up. It is hard as a Pirate fan to watch but what good would it have done to keep a team of roll players together and finish maybe 20 games better.


#4

I support what the Pirates are doing. Their system was so bad it had to be redone from scratch. Their methodology is absolutely correct. Now, 2 questions must be answered:

  1. Did they get the right players in trade returns and drafting.

  2. If question 1 turns out to be yes, will they pay them to keep them.

If the answer to question 1 is no, then the front office will all will be fired and they will start over. But if yes, then they have a good team in 4 or 5 years, but then trade everybody away because they can’t afford them, we will have the answer what this organization and new management team is all about.


#5

Ian Snell was always a “good arm, no head” type of pitcher. It was a good move to trade Snell. But, don’t be so sure the Snell trade was a “baseball move” more the a “salary dump” from the Pirate angle.
Since childhood I have always had a “favorite ML player.” Checked box score first thing every day. My most FP is a Marlin. I have been following Marlins news and message board for the last year or so. Several days ago it became public that the union had filed a grievance against the Marlins about their "revenue sharing " money. I think the Marlins quickly entered into a tentative agreement with the union promising to spend more money. Since then they signed Johnson (4 years 39M), Uggla (one year big bucks) and Cantu (one year 6 M.) If you listen to the message boards. They had Johnson being traded to Yankees. Also message board chats gave NO CHANCE that Marlins would keep both Uggla and Cantu. Was management afraid of the grievance? Was management afraid that the grievance would go to an arbitrator? You be the judge. Either way. A big change in Marlins spending since the grievance.


#6

[quote=“tundra, post:1, topic:694”]Last year, they began the season ranked 28th of 30 teams with a payroll of $48 million but finished at around $25 million after trading off shortstop Jack Wilson, outfielder Nate McLouth, first baseman Adam LaRoche, second baseman Freddy Sanchez and pitchers Ian Snell and John Grabow for a bunch of minimum salary unproven prospects.

That accounted for $28.6 million in shed payroll, but team president Frank Coonelly justifies the jettisoning of their six best players by invoking the old Branch Rickey line to Ralph Kiner: “We finished last with you, we can just easily finish last without you.”[/quote]
I completely agree with Coonelly here. They didn’t trade Mantle, DiMaggio and Gehrig. None of those guys would be considered an all-star regular except maybe Sanchez and he probably only made it as the token Bucco except for his batting title year. Bay is the only upper echelon player they’ve traded in the last 10 years.

They are working on developing upper level players instead of guys who are just servicable major leaguers. They would never make the playoffs with a team of Laroche(s), Wilson, Sanchez, Nyjer Morgan, etc.


#7

Red Sox sold Babe Ruth.

On December 26, 1919, Frazee sold Ruth to the New York Yankees. Popular legend has it that Frazee sold Ruth and several other of his best players to finance a Broadway play, No, No, Nanette (which actually didn’t debut until 1925).


#8
[quote="tundra, post:1, topic:694"]Last year, they began the season ranked 28th of 30 teams with a payroll of $48 million but finished at around $25 million after trading off shortstop Jack Wilson, outfielder Nate McLouth, first baseman Adam LaRoche, second baseman Freddy Sanchez and pitchers Ian Snell and John Grabow for a bunch of minimum salary unproven prospects.

That accounted for $28.6 million in shed payroll, but team president Frank Coonelly justifies the jettisoning of their six best players by invoking the old Branch Rickey line to Ralph Kiner: “We finished last with you, we can just easily finish last without you.”[/quote]
I completely agree with Coonelly here. They didn’t trade Mantle, DiMaggio and Gehrig. None of those guys would be considered an all-star regular except maybe Sanchez and he probably only made it as the token Bucco except for his batting title year. Bay is the only upper echelon player they’ve traded in the last 10 years.

They are working on developing upper level players instead of guys who are just servicable major leaguers. They would never make the playoffs with a team of Laroche(s), Wilson, Sanchez, Nyjer Morgan, etc.

I’m with you here. And I heard this morning that the Red Sox had in fact come to a contract agreement with Bay – until they took a look at some MRIs on his knee(s). If that’s really the case, maybe we got rid of him just in time (so we could get return in the trade).


#9

[quote=“tundra, post:1, topic:694”]Sorry to bring up an old issue. If someone wants to draw a comparison (pro or con) between Pirate management and PSU basketball management go right ahead.

From the NY Daily News…

" Next up: the Pirates, who have been the most blatant team of all when it comes to pocketing their revenue sharing, trading off all their highest-paid players and creating a mausoleum of their beautiful taxpayer-funded new park. The Pirates, who have had 17 consecutive losing seasons, have ranked in the bottom four of payroll the last six years. Last year, they began the season ranked 28th of 30 teams with a payroll of $48 million but finished at around $25 million after trading off shortstop Jack Wilson, outfielder Nate McLouth, first baseman Adam LaRoche, second baseman Freddy Sanchez and pitchers Ian Snell and John Grabow for a bunch of minimum salary unproven prospects.

That accounted for $28.6 million in shed payroll, but team president Frank Coonelly justifies the jettisoning of their six best players by invoking the old Branch Rickey line to Ralph Kiner: “We finished last with you, we can just easily finish last without you.” Tell that to the Pirate fans who deserve so much better. But have faith, Buc faithful. The players’ union is coming to your rescue.

According to sources familiar with what went down between Selig and Players Association honchos last week, the union has targeted four teams - the Marlins, Pirates, Rays and San Diego Padres - against whom they’ve threatened to file a grievance if they don’t get their payrolls up in accordance to the revenue-sharing formula in the Basic Agreement."[/quote]

wonder what Madden’s source is. Dejan from the PPG (who has the best info on the Bucs) had another source saying they aren’t going to be targeted ahttp://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/pbc/archive/2010/01/17/morning-links-a-week-of-video.aspx. They’ve spent $60 million more than the Marlins the past few years, so I don’t really think they should be investigated. As others have posted they are rebuilding things nicely and seem to have things going in the right direction now. If Pedro Alvarez and others pan out things could turn around relatively quickly.


#10

Dejan said today:

that the opening-day payroll for the 25-man roster projects to be $35.65 million. T
Then he said:
That might be the lowest in the majors. The San Diego Padres are expected to be near $40 million, the Oakland Athletics at $42 million and the Florida Marlins at $45 million.

USA’s All Sport All Time losing record. 17 and counting. Maybe a couple of board members can “bet” on this year.

And, Oh yeah, that 35.65M is before the “sell offs” Talk to me at the trading deadline.


#11

[quote=“tundra, post:10, topic:694”]Dejan said today:

that the opening-day payroll for the 25-man roster projects to be $35.65 million. T
Then he said:
That might be the lowest in the majors. The San Diego Padres are expected to be near $40 million, the Oakland Athletics at $42 million and the Florida Marlins at $45 million.

USA’s All Sport All Time losing record. 17 and counting. Maybe a couple of board members can “bet” on this year.

And, Oh yeah, that 35.65M is before the “sell offs” Talk to me at the trading deadline.[/quote]

Who do they have to sell off?


#12

Doumit, Duke and McHome…and now Dotel.


#13

McHome? Do you mean Maholm

If you look at it who those guys are:

You have a catcher that is injury prone, below average defensively and a .273 hitter with an OPS of .780

Two left handed finesse pitchers that have eras of .430 and .433 and WHIP of 1.45 and 1.42 respectively.

An old RHP that may or may not have anything left in the tank.

Those certainly are not great assets if you move any of them.


#14
[quote="tundra, post:12, topic:694"]Doumit, Duke and McHome.....and now Dotel.[/quote] McHome? Do you mean Maholm

If you look at it who those guys are:

You have a catcher that is injury prone, below average defensively and a .273 hitter with an OPS of .780

Two left handed finesse pitchers that have eras of .430 and .433 and WHIP of 1.45 and 1.42 respectively.

An old RHP that may or may not have anything left in the tank.

Those certainly are not great assets if you move any of them.


Never said they were great players.But I guess the “A level” players they get in return will be better. BUT, it funny that when the Pirates signed them to multi year contracts the were “corner stones” to built the future winning team around! Look it up. Can’t have it both ways.
Doumit can hit. Switch hitter also. May be better in AL or someplace where he is not called on to catch 120+ games. Duke and Maholm are classic “crafty lefties.” Could be very helpful on the correct team.
Add in Iwamura as a potential “sell off.” Vazquez also.
By “sell off” I mean “anyone” with more than approximately 1M contract or any “multi year” contract."
But they are running out of “sell off” guys. They can try for an “all Minimum” salary roster.
Hard to defend the LEAGUE LOWEST SALARY and The All Time All Sport USA losing record. I don’t know if you remember the basketball LA Clipper’s run. SI did a nice article “tearing the Clippers apart” for their cheapness and putting profit above trying to have a winning team.
Boy, Bobby Hill sure worked out better than A. Ramirez, huh.
But, that is what happens when the owner gives the management direct orders to cut “X” amount of salary in short period of time. You can change “GMs and other management guys every year”, but it is ownership that sets the budget dollar amount.

#15

Talking about Pirate ownership …read from Wikipedia:

Kevin McClatchy was the leader and plurality investor in a group that paid $95 million for the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1996. McClatchy immediately assumed the posts of chief executive officer and managing general partner, which are the offices traditionally staffed directly by owners in Major League Baseball.

McClatchy is a member of Major League Baseball’s executive council and the labor and international committees. At some point, which is not entirely known because the Pirates are a private corporation, G. Ogden Nutting and his family became the plurality and then majority owners in the franchise. Bob Nutting, Ogden’s son, is now chairman of the board. The Nuttings, however, have consistently shied from the spotlight and allowed McClatchy to be the main or even sole voice of the ownership group.

“Plurality” is the key word.