PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Big Ten conference embraces some temp-free stats

I was visiting the Big Ten official stats site and was shocked to find tempo-free rebounding stats.

Is someone over there paying attention and starting to understand the importance of tempo-free numbers?

I’m tired of hearing an announcer say that PSU is the best offensive rebounding team in the league only to have it be qualifed with “well they do miss a lot of shots which explains it”. We are one of the best rebounding teams in the conference independent of how many shots we miss and don’t need a disclaimer on our accomplishments.

Here are the league overall numbers:

and the league conference only numbers:

Gradually, we will make inroads.

NOTE: This is actually more of an acceptance by Stat Crew Software, who provides the stats for most, if not all, of the NCAA conferences, than it is the Big Ten. Stat Crew started including the rebounding percentage numbers in their reports so it’s showing up in conferences across the country.

Now if the announcers would only begin to understand it.

OSU pretty darn impressive in league.

Great job so far by the Nits.

Interesting numbers.

I had figured that we only had so many offensive rebounds because we missed so many shots :slight_smile:

Its good to see that even when you put it on a tempo free basis we look pretty good.

[quote=“tjb, post:2, topic:2971”]OSU pretty darn impressive in league.

Great job so far by the Nits.[/quote]

Ohio State’s league numbers are skewed because they haven’t played Penn State yet :wink:

Lar-

A quick glance at those numbers on my lunch break (only 35-40 years till retirement!) makes it seem like the tempo-free rebounding %s are normalized against total rebounds against (i.e. team offensive rebounds/team defensive rebounds against)

Should all of those percentages add up to 1, if you were to aggregate them?

maybe not if missed shots that aren’t rebounded are included. ie. the missed shot goes out of bounds or is a buzzer beater or the shooter was fouled.

If there is a missed shot, there is a rebound.

Though, maybe they’re not counting team rebounds (the out of bounds case) or more so dead ball rebounds (missing the front end of a two-shot foul)

[quote=“PSUClassof2011, post:5, topic:2971”]Lar-

A quick glance at those numbers on my lunch break (only 35-40 years till retirement!) makes it seem like the tempo-free rebounding %s are normalized against total rebounds against (i.e. team offensive rebounds/team defensive rebounds against)

Should all of those percentages add up to 1, if you were to aggregate them?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you are asking here.

Offensive Rebounding percentage = total team offensive rebounds/(total team offensive rebounds + total opponent defensive rebounds)
Defensive Rebounding percentage = total team defensive rebounds/(total team defensive rebounds + total opponent offensive rebounds).

Summing the total percentages for the non conference games is meaningless.

Summing the total percentages for the conference games should give you 12 (I think - I haven’t done a mathematical proof).

Missed shots are always rebounded.

If a shot goes out of bounds, it’s an opponent team rebound (or an offensive team rebound if it goes off an opponent)
If a shot is a missed buzzer beater in the context of your offense, it’s an opponent team rebound.
If a shot is a missed buzzer beater heave, it doesn’t count as a shot or a rebound.
If a shooter is fouled and misses, it doesn’t count as a shot or a rebound.

maybe not if missed shots that aren't rebounded are included. ie. the missed shot goes out of bounds or is a buzzer beater or the shooter was fouled.

If there is a missed shot, there is a rebound.

Though, maybe they’re not counting team rebounds (the out of bounds case) or more so dead ball rebounds (missing the front end of a two-shot foul)

Team rebounds are counted, dead ball rebounds are not.

[quote="PSUClassof2011, post:5, topic:2971"]Lar-

A quick glance at those numbers on my lunch break (only 35-40 years till retirement!) makes it seem like the tempo-free rebounding %s are normalized against total rebounds against (i.e. team offensive rebounds/team defensive rebounds against)

Should all of those percentages add up to 1, if you were to aggregate them?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you are asking here.

Offensive Rebounding percentage = total team offensive rebounds/(total team offensive rebounds + total opponent defensive rebounds)
Defensive Rebounding percentage = total team defensive rebounds/(total team defensive rebounds + total opponent offensive rebounds).

Summing the total percentages for the non conference games is meaningless.

Summing the total percentages for the conference games should give you 12 (I think - I haven’t done a mathematical proof).

Just did some math; each game, the sum of the two teams’ aggregate % is 1. Basically the identity only holds if each shot has a rebound. It doesn’t have any practical significance at all…all it says is that every shot gets a recorded rebound, then every game will have 100% rebounding. Very tautological. I’ll leave now :-[

Some good tempo-free B1G stuff.

http://bloguin.com/runthefloor/2012-articles/january/big-ten-by-the-numbers.html

[quote="PSUClassof2011, post:5, topic:2971"]Lar-

A quick glance at those numbers on my lunch break (only 35-40 years till retirement!) makes it seem like the tempo-free rebounding %s are normalized against total rebounds against (i.e. team offensive rebounds/team defensive rebounds against)

Should all of those percentages add up to 1, if you were to aggregate them?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you are asking here.

Offensive Rebounding percentage = total team offensive rebounds/(total team offensive rebounds + total opponent defensive rebounds)
Defensive Rebounding percentage = total team defensive rebounds/(total team defensive rebounds + total opponent offensive rebounds).

Summing the total percentages for the non conference games is meaningless.

Summing the total percentages for the conference games should give you 12 (I think - I haven’t done a mathematical proof).

Just did some math; each game, the sum of the two teams’ aggregate % is 1. Basically the identity only holds if each shot has a rebound. It doesn’t have any practical significance at all…all it says is that every shot gets a recorded rebound, then every game will have 100% rebounding. Very tautological. I’ll leave now :-[

Actually, that’s not quite correct. A team’s offensive rebounding percentage is the complement of their opponent’s defensive rebounding percentage, i.e. TeamA OR% = 1 - TeamB DR%. That means when you add up the teams’ percentages, they will total 2.

Specifically, (TeamA OR%) + (TeamB OR%) + (Team A DR%) + (TeamB DR%) = 2.

Also, every MISSED shot, by definition, does get a recorded rebound.

[quote="PSUClassof2011, post:5, topic:2971"]Lar-

A quick glance at those numbers on my lunch break (only 35-40 years till retirement!) makes it seem like the tempo-free rebounding %s are normalized against total rebounds against (i.e. team offensive rebounds/team defensive rebounds against)

Should all of those percentages add up to 1, if you were to aggregate them?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you are asking here.

Offensive Rebounding percentage = total team offensive rebounds/(total team offensive rebounds + total opponent defensive rebounds)
Defensive Rebounding percentage = total team defensive rebounds/(total team defensive rebounds + total opponent offensive rebounds).

Summing the total percentages for the non conference games is meaningless.

Summing the total percentages for the conference games should give you 12 (I think - I haven’t done a mathematical proof).

Just did some math; each game, the sum of the two teams’ aggregate % is 1. Basically the identity only holds if each shot has a rebound. It doesn’t have any practical significance at all…all it says is that every shot gets a recorded rebound, then every game will have 100% rebounding. Very tautological. I’ll leave now :-[

Actually, that’s not quite correct. A team’s offensive rebounding percentage is the complement of their opponent’s defensive rebounding percentage, i.e. TeamA OR% = 1 - TeamB DR%. That means when you add up the teams’ percentages, they will total 2.

Specifically, (TeamA OR%) + (TeamB OR%) + (Team A DR%) + (TeamB DR%) = 2.

Also, every MISSED shot, by definition, does get a recorded rebound.

Right, and the nice thing about that stat is it doesn’t just measure the total number of rebounds you got (which without context is meaningless), the % measures the total rebounds you got compared to the total rebounds you could have gotten.

I think most sports fans prefer un-normalized statistics, which is pretty unfortunate. It leads to discussions about how today’s middle-of-the-pack quarterbacks are better than yesteryear’s because they throw for more yards/completions/TDs.

Then again, people still wax nostalgic about the price of gas in the early 70’s, even though it’s basically the same price, in real terms.

For those interested in conference-only tempo free numbers, I’ve set up a spreadsheet to keep track. Pomeroy has yet to add this feature to his site. You can see each individual team’s conference #'s but can’t compare easily to the rest of the league (unless I’m missing it ???). And while I’ve been meaning to ask him this, Pomeroy’s rebounding %'s have been off. I don’t know if it’s because he doesn’t include team rebounds or he adjusts them or what, but PSU’s percentages are even a little better than his site says. I’ve got us (on the Averages tab) at 37.3% OReb% and 25.8% Opp OReb% using official numbers. He has us at 36.9% and 25.7%.

Anyway, all of this was going to be a weekly Big Ten feature on BSD. It still might be. I’ve just been too lazy to figure out how I can make/integrate sortable tables into BSD posts.

[quote=“eric17, post:15, topic:2971”]For those interested in conference-only tempo free numbers, I’ve set up a spreadsheet to keep track. Pomeroy has yet to add this feature to his site. You can see each individual team’s conference #'s but can’t compare easily to the rest of the league (unless I’m missing it ???). And while I’ve been meaning to ask him this, Pomeroy’s rebounding %'s have been off. I don’t know if it’s because he doesn’t include team rebounds or he adjusts them or what, but PSU’s percentages are even a little better than his site says. I’ve got us (on the Averages tab) at 37.3% OReb% and 25.8% Opp OReb% using official numbers. He has us at 36.9% and 25.7%.

Anyway, all of this was going to be a weekly Big Ten feature on BSD. It still might be. I’ve just been too lazy to figure out how I can make/integrate sortable tables into BSD posts.[/quote]

Put a check in the conference box.

[quote="PSUClassof2011, post:5, topic:2971"]Lar-

A quick glance at those numbers on my lunch break (only 35-40 years till retirement!) makes it seem like the tempo-free rebounding %s are normalized against total rebounds against (i.e. team offensive rebounds/team defensive rebounds against)

Should all of those percentages add up to 1, if you were to aggregate them?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you are asking here.

Offensive Rebounding percentage = total team offensive rebounds/(total team offensive rebounds + total opponent defensive rebounds)
Defensive Rebounding percentage = total team defensive rebounds/(total team defensive rebounds + total opponent offensive rebounds).

Summing the total percentages for the non conference games is meaningless.

Summing the total percentages for the conference games should give you 12 (I think - I haven’t done a mathematical proof).

Just did some math; each game, the sum of the two teams’ aggregate % is 1. Basically the identity only holds if each shot has a rebound. It doesn’t have any practical significance at all…all it says is that every shot gets a recorded rebound, then every game will have 100% rebounding. Very tautological. I’ll leave now :-[

Actually, that’s not quite correct. A team’s offensive rebounding percentage is the complement of their opponent’s defensive rebounding percentage, i.e. TeamA OR% = 1 - TeamB DR%. That means when you add up the teams’ percentages, they will total 2.

Specifically, (TeamA OR%) + (TeamB OR%) + (Team A DR%) + (TeamB DR%) = 2.

Also, every MISSED shot, by definition, does get a recorded rebound.

Not the ones at the end of the half.

Not the ones at the end of the half.

[/quote]

Those aren’t recorded as shots though

[b]Also, every MISSED shot, by definition, does get a recorded rebound.[/b]

Not the ones at the end of the half.

Those aren’t recorded as shots though
[/quote]

What about a shot that goes out of bounds off a player, or one that goes straight out of bounds?

[quote="Skeeza, post:17, topic:2971"][b]Also, every MISSED shot, by definition, does get a recorded rebound.[/b][/quote]

Not the ones at the end of the half.

Those aren’t recorded as shots though

What about a shot that goes out of bounds off a player, or one that goes straight out of bounds?
[/quote]

Those are shots. And team rebounds.