PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

Battle-tested


#1

Here is an article on Talor Battle from Blue White Illustrated

http://bwi.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1162949


#2

Good article. I think he’s a solid pick for the pros. Dan Earl’s comments about people saying he couldn’t play DI ring true. I heard it for two seasons. Not sure what people were looking at. His play blew me away. In '06, Rice HS had Edgar Sosa and Curtis Kelly(K State) and they lost to Lincoln who lost to Mt. Vernon. The next year, Talor took Bishop Maginn, a school of 600 to the championship vs. Mt. Vernon, a school of 4,000, losing by 3. The next year, guided by Taran, they beat MV, which had WVU’s Kevin Jones for those two games. Talor showed them how to win. A rare talent. And that shot the other night? Jonny Flynn wouldn’t hit the backboard from there. I can’t wait for the MSU game. Kalin who? Izzo better be putting the blue tape out further in preparation. ;)LP had it right, “Good God, this kid has range.”


#3

Even if Talor doesn’t get drafted he will get a chance to prove himself. I’ve seen him play and we all know the boy can play. He can score in so many ways. My guess is that NBA scouts may think that he’s too small and won’t be able to defend at the NBA level. I’m sure the scouts don’t like his FG shooting, he’s always been around 40%. I would just like to see another Penn State player in the NBA.


#4

Kid, I really, really like Talor, but your convoluted comparative methods of implied proof of Talor’s talents are laughable at best.

Since Talor led his team to a win against a team that had beat a team that had beat Edgar Sosa’s team two years before, ergo Talor is better than Sosa.

When I was in 6th grade, I pinned a kid three times in one season. Three years later he beat Bucky Greeley in a tournament. Bucky would go on to catch a cup of coffee in the NFL. Ergo, I was a NFL caliber football player.

I used to body slam a kid in high school football practice who once hit a homer off Mike Mussina, ergo I am a potential Hall of Famer.

I used to beat my brother all the time in Connect Four and Battleship. My brother once tackled Gary Brown in high school, and Williamsport was about four times the size as ours, ergo I am qualified to be an NFL assistant coach.

My biggest concern last year when Talor was exploring the NBA was the the NCAA would rule him inelligible to return, because you were his de facto agent.

Did I mention that I really, really, really like Talor?


#5

Not an NBA pro. Great kid. He can make money somewhere.
What people are looking at, like we talked about last year, is his lack of strength with the ball and his slight size. Joe Crispin was a lot closer to making it than Talor will be because, even though he was too small also, he had a terrific handle and a really quick trigger on the 3. Talor has neither of those.


#6

My take is that Talor is good in a whole bunch of areas, but to make it to the NBA with his size he needs to be “great” at a couple of things. While a very good player he seems to lack the greatness needed to overcome his shortcomings.


#7

You make a good point, he will have to become great at a few things to play in the NBA. If he doesn’t make off the bat he can continue to work on his skills and try again in the future.


#8

That’s true. Maybe he is someone who can benefit from the NBA developmental league if given the opportunity to play there. That way he can improve his skills and be under the watchful eyes of NBA scouts. Only bad thing about that is supposedly those guys don’t make that much money. He might be able to do better financially if he played overseas.


#9

I’d love for Talor to make it in the NBA - I think he would really represent himself and PSU well. It would also give me a reason to watch the NBA. And for those who do watch the NBA, here is a question for you:

Do many “undersized” guys make it in the NBA? You see a fair amount in the NFL - heck, the Patriots seem to always have a few, but I’m curious about the NBA. I would think if there is one position where size matters the least, it would be point guard. But size would still help, especially for defensive purposes.


#10

This profile was written about him in September. It answers a lot of the questions posed about Battle’s chances at the next level. Hope you find this helpful if you haven’t seen it before. http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Talor-Battle-5672/


#11

[quote=“djones, post:5, topic:1616”]Not an NBA pro. Great kid. He can make money somewhere.
What people are looking at, like we talked about last year, is his lack of strength with the ball and his slight size. Joe Crispin was a lot closer to making it than Talor will be because, even though he was too small also, he had a terrific handle and a really quick trigger on the 3. Talor has neither of those.[/quote]
Also, Joe was a lights out foul shooter. Talor is less than average.
After making that statement I decided to compare the actual stats.
I looked this up and ironically Talor just equaled the number of career foul shots that Joe Crispin took. To date, Talor has taken, and Joe took exactly the same numbr of career foul shots. That number is 506.
Foul shots made: Joe 448
Talor 353

WOW!


#12

[quote=“djones, post:5, topic:1616”]Not an NBA pro. Great kid. He can make money somewhere.
What people are looking at, like we talked about last year, is his lack of strength with the ball and his slight size. Joe Crispin was a lot closer to making it than Talor will be because, even though he was too small also, he had a terrific handle and a really quick trigger on the 3. Talor has neither of those.[/quote]

Not sure why people question his handle. Dribbles with his head up, and very quick. Maybe not the quick release Crispin had, but beats his man off the dribble easier. And looking at Joe’s 3 shooting stats, they’re not so hot. If Joe was so good at handling, how come he had 110 assists and 96 TO’s? That’s good? He shot .373 overall and .356 from the arc. Talor shot .420 last year overall, and .350 from the arc. And how about ups and rebounding? The numbers disagree, though Joe was 87% from the line.


#13
[quote="kidcoyote, post:2, topic:1616"]Good article. I think he's a solid pick for the pros. Dan Earl's comments about people saying he couldn't play DI ring true. I heard it for two seasons. Not sure what people were looking at. His play blew me away. In '06, Rice HS had Edgar Sosa and Curtis Kelly(K State) and they lost to Lincoln who lost to Mt. Vernon. The next year, Talor took Bishop Maginn, a school of 600 to the championship vs. Mt. Vernon, a school of 4,000, losing by 3. The next year, guided by Taran, they beat MV, which had WVU's Kevin Jones for those two games. Talor showed them how to win. A rare talent. And that shot the other night? Jonny Flynn wouldn't hit the backboard from there. I can't wait for the MSU game. Kalin who? Izzo better be putting the blue tape out further in preparation. ;)LP had it right, "Good God, this kid has range."[/quote]

Kid, I really, really like Talor, but your convoluted comparative methods of implied proof of Talor’s talents are laughable at best.

Since Talor led his team to a win against a team that had beat a team that had beat Edgar Sosa’s team two years before, ergo Talor is better than Sosa.

When I was in 6th grade, I pinned a kid three times in one season. Three years later he beat Bucky Greeley in a tournament. Bucky would go on to catch a cup of coffee in the NFL. Ergo, I was a NFL caliber football player.

I used to body slam a kid in high school football practice who once hit a homer off Mike Mussina, ergo I am a potential Hall of Famer.

I used to beat my brother all the time in Connect Four and Battleship. My brother once tackled Gary Brown in high school, and Williamsport was about four times the size as ours, ergo I am qualified to be an NFL assistant coach.

My biggest concern last year when Talor was exploring the NBA was the the NCAA would rule him inelligible to return, because you were his de facto agent.

Did I mention that I really, really, really like Talor?

I know you think it’s funny, but it just shows you don’t go to high level HS games. The year Talor was in it, Lincoln had 4 players go to DI, Rice 4, Mt. Vernon, 3. Some of these guys are projected 1st round picks, e.g., Kemba Walker(leading scorer in nation), Durand Scott, and maybe Kevin Jones and Curtis Kelley. It’s not like watching SCAHS ball. Not sure why it’s so difficult to get. If you think it’s like you in the 6th grade, I guess it’s understandable.

Jimmer Fredette played in the “A” division, and lost in the finals.


#14

Because there is no logic behind your method. Your proof uses the six degrees of Kevin Bacon methodology. Hey, Oliver McCall beat Larry Holmes who whupped Ali, ergo, McCall was a better boxer than Ali.


#15
[quote="djones, post:5, topic:1616"]Not an NBA pro. Great kid. He can make money somewhere. What people are looking at, like we talked about last year, is his lack of strength with the ball and his slight size. Joe Crispin was a lot closer to making it than Talor will be because, even though he was too small also, he had a terrific handle and a really quick trigger on the 3. Talor has neither of those.[/quote] Not sure why people question his handle. Dribbles with his head up, and very quick. Maybe not the quick release Crispin had, but beats his man off the dribble easier. And looking at Joe's 3 shooting stats, they're not so hot. If Joe was so good at handling, how come he had 110 assists and 96 TO's? That's good? He shot .373 overall and .356 from the arc. Talor shot .420 last year overall, and .350 from the arc. And how about ups and rebounding? The numbers disagree, [b]though Joe was 87% from the line.[/b]

Just for the sake of accuracy Joe was 88.5% from the line. Certainly Talor has the edge in “ups” and in assist to T.O. ratio. The foul shooting % difference is the biggest separator.
I do not understand why the flaw in his foul shot technique & his mediocre foul shooting and have never been worked through. Most everyone on this board has recognized the flaw in his foul shooting, and after 3 and a half years, his less than 70% conversion rate has never resulted in any kind of technique adjustment. So many skills of Talor’s great game can not be taught. Happen to think that good foul shooting technique can be, but it has just never happened.


#16
[quote="djones, post:5, topic:1616"]Not an NBA pro. Great kid. He can make money somewhere. What people are looking at, like we talked about last year, is his lack of strength with the ball and his slight size. Joe Crispin was a lot closer to making it than Talor will be because, even though he was too small also, he had a terrific handle and a really quick trigger on the 3. Talor has neither of those.[/quote] Not sure why people question his handle. Dribbles with his head up, and very quick. Maybe not the quick release Crispin had, but beats his man off the dribble easier. And looking at Joe's 3 shooting stats, they're not so hot. If Joe was so good at handling, how come he had 110 assists and 96 TO's? That's good? He shot .373 overall and .356 from the arc. Talor shot .420 last year overall, and .350 from the arc. And how about ups and rebounding? The numbers disagree, [b]though Joe was 87% from the line.[/b]

Just for the sake of accuracy Joe was 88.5% from the line. Certainly Talor has the edge in “ups” and in assist to T.O. ratio. The foul shooting % difference is the biggest separator.
I do not understand why the flaw in his foul shot technique & his mediocre foul shooting and have never been worked through. Most everyone on this board has recognized the flaw in his foul shooting, and after 3 and a half years, his less than 70% conversion rate has never resulted in any kind of technique adjustment. So many skills of Talor’s great game can not be taught. Happen to think that good foul shooting technique can be, but it has just never happened.

It’s true and not sure why he hasn’t fixed it. Too flat, IMO. Shouldn’t keep him out though. Lots of guys can’t shoot FT’s in the pros. Ray Felton, starting pg on the Knicks, shot 63% on UNC, and they won the national championship.


#17

I thought this section was quite interesting. Don’t think many give him credit because of the team record. Just look at how Lucas is viewed. Does that make any sense? The highlighted section below nails it. Scouts figure he can’t be that good cause the team isn’t. This is a scout admitting that he hadn’t seen him play, but just looked at the record, confused as to why if he plays this way, the team doesn’t win. But IMO, can’t go by this. Many instances of guys in basketball not being able to carry their team to success at the college level. On the second highlight, I guess open shots are easier than “the shot”.

[i]In late June, Battle took part in the Deron Williams Skills Academy camp in Chicago and found his missing mojo. He said that of all the prestigious awards, camps and teams he’d been chosen for while in college, even the 2009 U.S. World University Games Team, none gave him as much confidence he could play at the game’s highest level than did this past summer’s camps.

Playing in what was essentially a college basketball pick-up all-star game, Battle competed with the best, and shined. In the Deron Williams camp, he played against guards from some of the top schools in the country. “They made it to the Final Four, they won the national championship, and I go there and I perform really well,” Battle said. “I think going in there, people were uncertain how good I really was because I’m not on a Duke team.”

People got certain about Battle at the Williams camp. Quickly.

He played so well that he was invited to participate as one of only about 20 elite college players at the LeBron James Skills Academy in Akron, Ohio, just a couple of weeks later. One of the most prestigious summer camps in the country, the Akron event is a favorite haunt of NBA scouts. Battle knew it, and by all accounts, he didn’t disappoint.

"I played even better at LeBron, so I leave that and one of the Nike rep guys, he actually stopped me and said, ‘How come you guys can’t win more games? The way you’re playing, it looks like you should have won more.’

"I said, ‘I tried. We tried. It just didn’t get done.’

"So I think that exposure at LeBron really helped me with all of the scouts that were out there. I think people understand that it’s a lot easier playing when you’ve got five all-stars on your team. Kick it to me in the corner. … I won’t miss many shots.

"When I was out there in the couple days we scrimmaged, I probably missed three threes total out of about 16 or something. It was just the simple fact that I got an open, easy shot. It was not very hard.

“I went out to those camps and performed really well. Really, really well, actually. And I think that’s going to help me with all of those scouts there. That was a big turning point, going out there, working out with them, seeing what it really takes. I learned a lot from that process.”

At the peak of his exposure with NBA scouts, Battle returned to the reality of his situation at Penn State.
[/i]


#18
[quote="djones, post:5, topic:1616"]Not an NBA pro. Great kid. He can make money somewhere. What people are looking at, like we talked about last year, is his lack of strength with the ball and his slight size. Joe Crispin was a lot closer to making it than Talor will be because, even though he was too small also, he had a terrific handle and a really quick trigger on the 3. Talor has neither of those.[/quote]

Not sure why people question his handle. Dribbles with his head up, and very quick. Maybe not the quick release Crispin had, but beats his man off the dribble easier. And looking at Joe’s 3 shooting stats, they’re not so hot. If Joe was so good at handling, how come he had 110 assists and 96 TO’s? That’s good? He shot .373 overall and .356 from the arc. Talor shot .420 last year overall, and .350 from the arc. And how about ups and rebounding? The numbers disagree, though Joe was 87% from the line.

Mike, you obviously love the game and you’re knowledgeable. But you have a blind spot with Talor.
This is a very good example of why numbers often suck. They do not tell the story at all. People who rely on them solely can miss the truth. Only good qualitative analysis finds it. But “numbers guys” turn around and rationalize that “eyeball” guys can’t “prove” their points and don’t really want to have to. Which burns me up. But that’s a whole other debate.

Crispin, though a wonderful guy, tended to be a selfish player. I don’t even know that “selfish” describes it adequately. He just put too much on his own shoulders. It drove Gyasi and Jarrett Stephens nuts at times. THAT’s why he wasn’t a very good assist man, not because he wasn’t “so good at handling.” In fact, he was so adept at handling and getting clearance and he could get around guys with such alacrity that he took some shots he shouldn’t have taken instead of drawing the defense and kicking or bouncing across the lane – something Danny Earl was wonderful at.

Bubby is BETTER at that than Joe ever was. And had Talor ever had a chance to play with an interior finisher like Stephens instead of these stonehanded guys he’s spent half his career with, he’d have half-again as many assists.
But when you say Bubby “beats his man off the dribble easier,” that just simply is not true. See, I have no numbers to fall back on to “prove” this because there aren’t any, but it’s nonsense. Joe’s handle and feet are and were twice what Talor’s are. It’s just not even close. Talor gets where he gets with guile and little stop-start moves but he’s not as quick at ANYTHING as Joe was (and still is). Joe’s feet, dribble and release are all a ton quicker and he had a more durable, compact physique by the time he was a senior than Talor does now. That’s why he got a shot at the league and played almost a full season before they decided he couldn’t guard anyone. (That’s also why Jameer Nelson can do what he does at the same height – he’s really put together; his physique is a fortress and it’s hard to knock him off balance.)

Did that advantage for Joe translate into assists or anything quantitative that you can point to that betters Bubby in comparative college stats? No. Because Joe was not very selective as a shooter and didn’t rely on teammates as much as he should have.

Bubby’s a better team player. (Which is what enraged me so about Dan Dakich’s rants last year.) But that doesn’t get you a shot in the NBA. Raw skills do. And that’s what we’re talking about.


#19
[quote="djones, post:5, topic:1616"]Not an NBA pro. Great kid. He can make money somewhere. What people are looking at, like we talked about last year, is his lack of strength with the ball and his slight size. Joe Crispin was a lot closer to making it than Talor will be because, even though he was too small also, he had a terrific handle and a really quick trigger on the 3. Talor has neither of those.[/quote]

Not sure why people question his handle. Dribbles with his head up, and very quick. Maybe not the quick release Crispin had, but beats his man off the dribble easier. And looking at Joe’s 3 shooting stats, they’re not so hot. If Joe was so good at handling, how come he had 110 assists and 96 TO’s? That’s good? He shot .373 overall and .356 from the arc. Talor shot .420 last year overall, and .350 from the arc. And how about ups and rebounding? The numbers disagree, though Joe was 87% from the line.

Mike, you obviously love the game and you’re knowledgeable. But you have a blind spot with Talor.
This is a very good example of why numbers often suck. They do not tell the story at all. People who rely on them solely can miss the truth. Only good qualitative analysis finds it. But “numbers guys” turn around and rationalize that “eyeball” guys can’t “prove” their points and don’t really want to have to. Which burns me up. But that’s a whole other debate.

Crispin, though a wonderful guy, tended to be a selfish player. I don’t even know that “selfish” describes it adequately. He just put too much on his own shoulders. It drove Gyasi and Jarrett Stephens nuts at times. THAT’s why he wasn’t a very good assist man, not because he wasn’t “so good at handling.” In fact, he was so adept at handling and getting clearance and he could get around guys with such alacrity that he took some shots he shouldn’t have taken instead of drawing the defense and kicking or bouncing across the lane – something Danny Earl was wonderful at.

Bubby is BETTER at that than Joe ever was. And had Talor ever had a chance to play with an interior finisher like Stephens instead of these stonehanded guys he’s spent half his career with, he’d have half-again as many assists.
But when you say Bubby “beats his man off the dribble easier,” that just simply is not true. See, I have no numbers to fall back on to “prove” this because there aren’t any, but it’s nonsense. Joe’s handle and feet are and were twice what Talor’s are. It’s just not even close. Talor gets where he gets with guile and little stop-start moves but he’s not as quick at ANYTHING as Joe was (and still is). Joe’s feet, dribble and release are all a ton quicker and he had a more durable, compact physique by the time he was a senior than Talor does now. That’s why he got a shot at the league and played almost a full season before they decided he couldn’t guard anyone. (That’s also why Jameer Nelson can do what he does at the same height – he’s really put together; his physique is a fortress and it’s hard to knock him off balance.)

Did that advantage for Joe translate into assists or anything quantitative that you can point to that betters Bubby in comparative college stats? No. Because Joe was not very selective as a shooter and didn’t rely on teammates as much as he should have.

Bubby’s a better team player. (Which is what enraged me so about Dan Dakich’s rants last year.) But that doesn’t get you a shot in the NBA. Raw skills do. And that’s what we’re talking about.

Didn’t see Joe play, so can’t really comment on him. But you’re saying Talor’s not quick? Sorry, not buying it. He penetrates and dishes at will. Nobody’s feet are much quicker. On release, you may be right. When Pringle was here, PSU did an NBA combine test and both Stan and Talor were above NBA combine average, both at or near the current top, or that year’s crop.

Talor may not make it, but nobody will convince me that Kalin Lucas, Jimmer Fredette, Jonny Flynn or DJ Augustin is better, though I think DJ the best of that bunch. FYI, he was listed as 5’10" when entering college, at least an inch shorter than Talor. I’d wager that Talor outscores and outrebounds Kalin for the 5th time in a row. And Izzo will be searching for defensive help once again. Finish this sentence for me, “Lucas is better because…”


#20

Don’t know much about Lucas. One thing that I do know is if you want to compare him to Talor, Lucas is a better free throw shooter. That’s all I know off the top of my head.