PennStateHoops.com Discussion Forum

3 years from now, what would you consider success?

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

New coaches like available scholorships!!!

Especially schools in a “rebuilding mode.” When most all forecasters predict you for LAST…the program may NOT be in great shape!

Is it the “worst” situation??? Not worth argueing about. It is what it is. Remember we have NOT seen 6 kids play yet.

P.S. I think the program would be better with LESS Ed talk. He is gone. He left on his own. Wish him luck AND…let’s move on. Yeah, and…look at his record if you want memories. My memories are mostly unhappy ones.

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

That I was…Pat’s hands are tied right now,and without the opening of a few scholarshipts it will take him longer to build the type of team he wants. I do see 1 or a few opening up at some point. It’s only natural with a new coach stepping in
[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

That I was…Pat’s hands are tied right now,and without the opening of a few scholarshipts it will take him longer to build the type of team he wants. I do see 1 or a few opening up at some point. It’s only natural with a new coach stepping in

That makes the assumption that the current kids on schollie are no good. If the group of 5 new kids this year (4 frosh and the Juco) along with Sasa and Graham are decent, than that is not a good assumption, and nobody really has a clue about that right now. If Oliver doesn’t fit in, considering he should have his degree by the end of the year, there is another schollie that will open up, as just like the football team, he’ll be asked to move along (and rightly so assuming he has got his 4 years of schollie money). And I would bet dollars to donuts that if any of the true frosh/Juco/Sasa/Graham end up riding the pine for most of the year because they don’t fit into Pat’s style of play, at leat one of them would transfer out to be able to still have multiple years left to play. So yes, ideally, PSU would have 3 or 4 graduating seniors this and year and 2 or 3 more the next year so that Pat had could turn the roster over in a quick period of time, but Pat has 3 new guys already and will most likely at least have 2 schollies for 2013 and potenially 3.

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

That I was…Pat’s hands are tied right now,and without the opening of a few scholarshipts it will take him longer to build the type of team he wants. I do see 1 or a few opening up at some point. It’s only natural with a new coach stepping in

That makes the assumption that the current kids on schollie are no good. If the group of 5 new kids this year (4 frosh and the Juco) along with Sasa and Graham are decent, than that is not a good assumption, and nobody really has a clue about that right now. If Oliver doesn’t fit in, considering he should have his degree by the end of the year, there is another schollie that will open up, as just like the football team, he’ll be asked to move along (and rightly so assuming he has got his 4 years of schollie money). And I would bet dollars to donuts that if any of the true frosh/Juco/Sasa/Graham end up riding the pine for most of the year because they don’t fit into Pat’s style of play, at leat one of them would transfer out to be able to still have multiple years left to play. So yes, ideally, PSU would have 3 or 4 graduating seniors this and year and 2 or 3 more the next year so that Pat had could turn the roster over in a quick period of time, but Pat has 3 new guys already and will most likely at least have 2 schollies for 2013 and potenially 3.

No it doesn’t. Every coach wants to bring in his own guys no matter how good the ones in house are.

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

That I was…Pat’s hands are tied right now,and without the opening of a few scholarshipts it will take him longer to build the type of team he wants. I do see 1 or a few opening up at some point. It’s only natural with a new coach stepping in

That makes the assumption that the current kids on schollie are no good. If the group of 5 new kids this year (4 frosh and the Juco) along with Sasa and Graham are decent, than that is not a good assumption, and nobody really has a clue about that right now. If Oliver doesn’t fit in, considering he should have his degree by the end of the year, there is another schollie that will open up, as just like the football team, he’ll be asked to move along (and rightly so assuming he has got his 4 years of schollie money). And I would bet dollars to donuts that if any of the true frosh/Juco/Sasa/Graham end up riding the pine for most of the year because they don’t fit into Pat’s style of play, at leat one of them would transfer out to be able to still have multiple years left to play. So yes, ideally, PSU would have 3 or 4 graduating seniors this and year and 2 or 3 more the next year so that Pat had could turn the roster over in a quick period of time, but Pat has 3 new guys already and will most likely at least have 2 schollies for 2013 and potenially 3.

No it doesn’t. Every coach wants to bring in his own guys no matter how good the ones in house are.

And good players aren’t always a good fit for a system. Although I doubt many coaches would try to run off all conference players. So, I wouldn’t say “no matter how good…”.

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

That I was…Pat’s hands are tied right now,and without the opening of a few scholarshipts it will take him longer to build the type of team he wants. I do see 1 or a few opening up at some point. It’s only natural with a new coach stepping in

That makes the assumption that the current kids on schollie are no good. If the group of 5 new kids this year (4 frosh and the Juco) along with Sasa and Graham are decent, than that is not a good assumption, and nobody really has a clue about that right now. If Oliver doesn’t fit in, considering he should have his degree by the end of the year, there is another schollie that will open up, as just like the football team, he’ll be asked to move along (and rightly so assuming he has got his 4 years of schollie money). And I would bet dollars to donuts that if any of the true frosh/Juco/Sasa/Graham end up riding the pine for most of the year because they don’t fit into Pat’s style of play, at leat one of them would transfer out to be able to still have multiple years left to play. So yes, ideally, PSU would have 3 or 4 graduating seniors this and year and 2 or 3 more the next year so that Pat had could turn the roster over in a quick period of time, but Pat has 3 new guys already and will most likely at least have 2 schollies for 2013 and potenially 3.

No it doesn’t. Every coach wants to bring in his own guys no matter how good the ones in house are.

And good players aren’t always a good fit for a system. Although I doubt many coaches would try to run off all conference players. So, I wouldn’t say “no matter how good…”.

It was a collective statement. No team has a dozen all conference players. Any coach coming into any program is going to think that he can recruit someone better than the guys on the end of the bench.

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

That I was…Pat’s hands are tied right now,and without the opening of a few scholarshipts it will take him longer to build the type of team he wants. I do see 1 or a few opening up at some point. It’s only natural with a new coach stepping in

That makes the assumption that the current kids on schollie are no good. If the group of 5 new kids this year (4 frosh and the Juco) along with Sasa and Graham are decent, than that is not a good assumption, and nobody really has a clue about that right now. If Oliver doesn’t fit in, considering he should have his degree by the end of the year, there is another schollie that will open up, as just like the football team, he’ll be asked to move along (and rightly so assuming he has got his 4 years of schollie money). And I would bet dollars to donuts that if any of the true frosh/Juco/Sasa/Graham end up riding the pine for most of the year because they don’t fit into Pat’s style of play, at leat one of them would transfer out to be able to still have multiple years left to play. So yes, ideally, PSU would have 3 or 4 graduating seniors this and year and 2 or 3 more the next year so that Pat had could turn the roster over in a quick period of time, but Pat has 3 new guys already and will most likely at least have 2 schollies for 2013 and potenially 3.

No it doesn’t. Every coach wants to bring in his own guys no matter how good the ones in house are.

And good players aren’t always a good fit for a system. Although I doubt many coaches would try to run off all conference players. So, I wouldn’t say “no matter how good…”.

It was a collective statement. No team has a dozen all conference players. Any coach coming into any program is going to think that he can recruit someone better than the guys on the end of the bench.

That goes without saying. Even the coach who recruited the guys at the end of the bench think they can get someone better. That’s why some kids “through mutual concent” will leave a program a la Skylar King and the Euros et al.

It’s always nice to have the option. You come in, you have a complete roster to work with. You don’t have to recruit these kids, they are already locked in. As you move along, some kids will find themselves without a role and leave. As a new coach, it’s a nice luxury. Of the 8 long term schollies, these are the ones I like, these are the ones who will not a role and soon depart.

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

That I was…Pat’s hands are tied right now,and without the opening of a few scholarshipts it will take him longer to build the type of team he wants. I do see 1 or a few opening up at some point. It’s only natural with a new coach stepping in

That makes the assumption that the current kids on schollie are no good. If the group of 5 new kids this year (4 frosh and the Juco) along with Sasa and Graham are decent, than that is not a good assumption, and nobody really has a clue about that right now. If Oliver doesn’t fit in, considering he should have his degree by the end of the year, there is another schollie that will open up, as just like the football team, he’ll be asked to move along (and rightly so assuming he has got his 4 years of schollie money). And I would bet dollars to donuts that if any of the true frosh/Juco/Sasa/Graham end up riding the pine for most of the year because they don’t fit into Pat’s style of play, at leat one of them would transfer out to be able to still have multiple years left to play. So yes, ideally, PSU would have 3 or 4 graduating seniors this and year and 2 or 3 more the next year so that Pat had could turn the roster over in a quick period of time, but Pat has 3 new guys already and will most likely at least have 2 schollies for 2013 and potenially 3.

No it doesn’t. Every coach wants to bring in his own guys no matter how good the ones in house are.

And good players aren’t always a good fit for a system. Although I doubt many coaches would try to run off all conference players. So, I wouldn’t say “no matter how good…”.

It was a collective statement. No team has a dozen all conference players. Any coach coming into any program is going to think that he can recruit someone better than the guys on the end of the bench.

I know what you meant. I was nitpicking.

[quote="Ajk822, post:13, topic:2710"]This year I just want there to be some sort of excitement. I feel like the programs going in the right direction, and I want to continue to feel that way. I don't want to feel like the season is pointless, and a waste of my time to go to the games. Now I don't expect anything major, but a couple upsets or two and a Big Ten record starting with a number bigger than 4 would make me happy.

[b]Year two I would like a fun team that gets out and runs and poses a scare to some teams. Hopefully make the postseason as well.

Year three we better be back in the tournament. Should have a bunch of experience at that point.[/b][/quote] For either of these to happen some schollies will have to open up (im sure that will prob happen) Pat couldn’t have walked into a worse situation with those.

That is not true, just look at what Ed walked into, a team in complete disarray following some horrible seasons, transfers, and in the end had to start a pair of true frosh guards under 6’ tall all year with no back-ups. Pat is coming off relative success for PSU BBall in an NIT championship and tourney appearance so at least some positive history to play up. He comes in with a full squad of schollies to field a real team on the floor. He already has signed up a legit player in Newbill who will be able to step right in with college experience and play next year and has already got two of his own true frosh for next year (no need to gamble on the Euro experiment that killed Ed’s early success chances). Ideally, PSU would have at least a few more guys with some experiene and an additional schollie or two for the next couple of year, but there is a lot there to work with. No where near a ‘worse situation’.

I think he was referring to the scholarships available, which is pretty bleak. Not only are few available now, the glut is in freshmen and sophomores.

That I was…Pat’s hands are tied right now,and without the opening of a few scholarshipts it will take him longer to build the type of team he wants. I do see 1 or a few opening up at some point. It’s only natural with a new coach stepping in

That makes the assumption that the current kids on schollie are no good. If the group of 5 new kids this year (4 frosh and the Juco) along with Sasa and Graham are decent, than that is not a good assumption, and nobody really has a clue about that right now. If Oliver doesn’t fit in, considering he should have his degree by the end of the year, there is another schollie that will open up, as just like the football team, he’ll be asked to move along (and rightly so assuming he has got his 4 years of schollie money). And I would bet dollars to donuts that if any of the true frosh/Juco/Sasa/Graham end up riding the pine for most of the year because they don’t fit into Pat’s style of play, at leat one of them would transfer out to be able to still have multiple years left to play. So yes, ideally, PSU would have 3 or 4 graduating seniors this and year and 2 or 3 more the next year so that Pat had could turn the roster over in a quick period of time, but Pat has 3 new guys already and will most likely at least have 2 schollies for 2013 and potenially 3.

No it doesn’t. Every coach wants to bring in his own guys no matter how good the ones in house are.

And good players aren’t always a good fit for a system. Although I doubt many coaches would try to run off all conference players. So, I wouldn’t say “no matter how good…”.

It was a collective statement. No team has a dozen all conference players. Any coach coming into any program is going to think that he can recruit someone better than the guys on the end of the bench.

That goes without saying. Even the coach who recruited the guys at the end of the bench think they can get someone better. That’s why some kids “through mutual concent” will leave a program a la Skylar King and the Euros et al.

It’s always nice to have the option. You come in, you have a complete roster to work with. You don’t have to recruit these kids, they are already locked in. As you move along, some kids will find themselves without a role and leave. As a new coach, it’s a nice luxury. Of the 8 long term schollies, these are the ones I like, these are the ones who will not a role and soon depart.

That essentially happened when ED came in. Chambliss was the only to leave before ED took over if I am remembering correctly.